Is health a product or a resource

[ZeroGara]

When medical research is done, is that to solve a problem for humanity, or is it to develop a new profitable product?
When you value a product you own you inure it. In terms of health/life insurance human life has the value set at the marketplace!
So the state (as in government) has the role to regulate the marketplace of yet one more product, health and life.

Have we lost the touch with the basics of humanity and developed a new value system solely based on wealth and profit? If not, health insurance, state or privately run, is an offense to a human value. That value is that human life has no monetary value and we should all mutually advance this value over any commodity listed in the board.

"Sorry, you can not afford this treatment, you must now die"
"Sorry, if you have no means to cover the cost of this remedy, you should walk out and die"
"Sorry, you are not covered under our system, you should die helpless"

NO!
If there is a way to cure, help, save, a life from suffering and death there should not be any value set to it.
Just as we provide education to anyone, help when they are trapped by fire or earthquake, at sea on distress, health care and medicine should be available to all with no price tag set on it.

Obama's plan is not solving this problem, he simply is trying to make the health insurance business less profitable. Life and health DOES NOT have a price tag!

[K-dogg]

Do you work for free? You should.

[RockyMt]

Other than basic life saving emergency services, (if that) why should I be responsible for the medical costs of someone who is an addict, or thru complete disreguard for themself, allows their weight to ballon to 400 lbs, or does not follow dietary instructions and get absessed feet? Because I put aside money to BUY coverage for myself and family instead of getting a new RV, (a HUGE percentage of un-insured Americans CAN afford insurance, but choose not to pay) Should I now be responsible for THAT? Slippery slope pal, should I also have to pay their kids tuition 'cause they didn't plan for it? Where did I miss the part where life is "fair", if you make stupid choices, you pay the price. I realize that means that you (unless born a Kennedy) actually have to WORK for a living. I understand that it's cool to stay in school till yer 35 on the taxpayers dime, but at some point ya gotta bite the bullet and GET A JOB! Oh, well, I just realized who I'm responding to, so rather than waste any more bandwidth, I'll stop now before I get a nasty PM from someone calling me a Nazi and thretening to "do my Mom"...............But I'm always amused at the creative way "progressives" come up with spending OTHER PEOPLES MONEY!

-Rocky-

[ZeroGara]

Originally Posted by K-dogg

Do you work for free?
You should.

Why and how is this related to what I was saying? Do firemen, ambulance crews, coast guard men, teachers, urban sanitation employees work for free?
Sure, volunteering helps, but if there should be a government it should at least provide a service and be responsible against citizens. Politicians don;t work for free either, we all pay them. If the responsibility to public health, safety education, hygiene, are not provided by government/society and we are all out for our own, there wouldn;t be much of civilization advancement, it would be a decline. Or is it?
In Sweden, minimum nutrition, sanitary living space, health services, are provided by government. It would be unthinkable for a Swede to have to pay for medical treatment. Their GDP/capita is not any higher than in the US, but there is no such thing as health insurance, private or government. Insurance means you put a price tag on a health service, a bowl of pills, and someone picks up the tab. The higher the costs are allowed to get the higher the cost of insurance. This doesn;t happen in places with a socialized health system. Doctors, nurses, are just employees. Whether they serve 10 patients a day or 1, they get their salary and go home at the end of their shift.
Do you want a real good example of socialized health care? US Armed forces! At least till Bush took a good whack on that system. All you needed was an ID of enlistment or being a dependent of an enlisted and there was no billing, no charging, no questions asked. What did it cost? Less than 1/4 per covered person than health care costs outside the system.
Infant mortality in the US is much higher than in Cuba. The US in now third in the American continent. There is no other country in the western industrialized world that is as bad as the US in some of the most important health statistics. It has now fallen between the civilized world and the impoverished third world. Check the factbooks, CIA, World Bank, UN, etc.
Even countries with less than a half of GNP/capita have better health statistics than the US.

Rocky, keep writing what you like, I will not address anything you talk about, keep cursing and threatening, I will simply ignore you. If you have anything to contribute to the debate please do for the shake of all, but don't expect any feedback from me.

[RockyMt]

Is that a PROMISE?

-Rocky-

PS. isn't there a 'Busa forum out there looking for ya cindy?

[robfromsc]

I can't grasp your point. Are you saying that people, regardless of reason should have health coverage by big brother? Or are you saying that big business needs to be kick out health care?

I'm the first to admit that there are some holes, we have some pretty good health care.

Every go to the ER? I went 2 days ago, 5 year old had a fever of 105.6 and the doctor told us to get him there...fast! (He's ok) there were many families in the ER, all but ourselves and the girl with the broken arm didn't have a emergency, they had a problem a primary care Dr would have handled, but they don't, or won't afford one...but they all had on 1
$150 tennis shoes and really nice clothes. Where's their priority? Just because my family sets money aside for coverage and for goes things like fancy skips and bling for the ladies, should I pay for those that don't? Or should I take a lower form of coverage, just like the people with the nice shoes get?

Nope


Move to sweden.

[chatcher]

i would rather my tax money go to a doctor than a soilder any day of the week

[robfromsc]

Originally Posted by chatcher

i would rather my tax money go to a doctor than a soilder any day of the week

That's easy to type, in the saftey of your little world. Problem with that lovely school of thought is without those bad GI's, your doctor would be do-do.

[ZeroGara]

Originally Posted by robfromsc

Or should I take a lower form of coverage, just like the people with the nice shoes get?

Where you miss the point by far is that your 5 year old is a full and supposedly equal citizen! Whether you and your wife are dumb and irresponsible should not be a negative consequence to the citizen. The state should be equally responsible to that 5 year old. Next time you see a fever climbing up high, give it a bath then take it to the hospital. Water in slightly cooler than body temperature will cool it down quick, for a while to avoid the danger to waiting till it gets care.
If you were dumb, uneducated, uninsured, that baby would have been either dead, or permanently brain damaged.

Originally Posted by robfromsc

Move to sweden.

If we all moved to Sweden then we would all be cold and poor! Subtropic marshland feels just right for me!

[nero]

Then may I suggest Venezuela, comrade ? I understand it's a workers paradise .

[RockyMt]

Originally Posted by ZeroGara

Where you miss the point by far is that your 5 year old is a full and supposedly equal citizen! Whether you and your wife are dumb and irresponsible should not be a negative consequence to the citizen. The state should be equally responsible to that 5 year old. Next time you see a fever climbing up high, give it a bath then take it to the hospital. Water in slightly cooler than body temperature will cool it down quick, for a while to avoid the danger to waiting till it gets care.
If you were dumb, uneducated, uninsured, that baby would have been either dead, or permanently brain damaged.



If we all moved to Sweden then we would all be cold and poor! Subtropic marshland feels just right for me!

Hell yeah, a high fever like that could turn the poor kid into a DEMOCRAT!

(Very happy yer kids OK! )

-Rocky-

[robfromsc]

Originally Posted by ZeroGara

Where you miss the point by far is that your 5 year old is a full and supposedly equal citizen! Whether you and your wife are dumb and irresponsible should not be a negative consequence to the citizen. The state should be equally responsible to that 5 year old. Next time you see a fever climbing up high, give it a bath then take it to the hospital. Water in slightly cooler than body temperature will cool it down quick, for a while to avoid the danger to waiting till it gets care.
If you were dumb, uneducated, uninsured, that baby would have been either dead, or permanently brain damaged.

That isnt even the point dude First off dont question the care I provide my family, you DONT want to go there.

Let me spell it out for you, since your having troubles understanding how the world works.

1. If your lazy, you dont get cool stuff

2. If your lazy and dont get a good job, you dont get cool stuff

3. If you buy gold teeth, and not health insurance, you cant get what you deserve.

So basically, go to school, graduate, skip the thug life yo! Wear a rubber, or get on the pill... Then get a real job, and dont spend all you money on worthless crap like beer,smokes,rims,cable tv or whatever other bullshit that distracts you from being a productive citizen, set aside money for healthcare, its kinda important.

What I dont get is that I did it, lots of my friends do it to. So it cant be all that hard.

Take some responcibilty for your own life, stop waiting for daddy to come hold your hand. Grow up, turn off you frign tv and get a JOB.


Thanks Rocky, like 12hr bug or something. He went from fine to hating it to fine in like 5hrs...kids. Atleast he didnt yack!

[ZeroGara]

Originally Posted by robfromsc

That isnt even the point dude First off dont question the care I provide my family, you DONT want to go there.

Just a friendly suggestion from a father of 3 who has seen it all. When you raise children you have to know things and don;t expect it all from doctors and systems. People are made predominantly of water, the quickest way to bring temperature down is to cool all the water down. A bathtub is your best friend! Furthermore, due to insurance liability bullshit, most fast acting fever reducing medication is by prescription only in the US, while in the rest of the industrialized world it is readily available to stock in at home.

Originally Posted by robfromsc

Let me spell it out for you, since your having troubles understanding how the world works.

1. If your lazy, you dont get cool stuff
2. If your lazy and dont get a good job, you dont get cool stuff
3. If you buy gold teeth, and not health insurance, you cant get what you deserve.
So basically, go to school, graduate, skip the thug life yo! Wear a rubber, or get on the pill... Then get a real job, and dont spend all you money on worthless crap like beer,smokes,rims,cable tv or whatever other bullshit that distracts you from being a productive citizen, set aside money for healthcare, its kinda important.

Hey, I have an 02 with Erions on, undertail, and smoked double bubble! What do you have? Along with my RG500, my Beta Zero Gara 260 trials, WR450f, etc.. No I don't have gold teeth, I think that is a tacky thing o have. I also suspect I'm older than you, but your small mind still didn;t get what I was clearly stating. It doesn;t matter what I or you or any other parent does, whether they are lazy, stupid, irresponsible, or wreckless. That kid born on US soil should not be paying the consequences of anyone's mistakes, especially if it is latr held respnsible to obey rules of this fascist government, dragged into war at 16, denied alcohol and cigarettes, when at the age of five he/she was denied health care because he/she had high fever!
Get it now?

Originally Posted by robfromsc

What I dont get is that I did it, lots of my friends do it to. So it cant be all that hard.

When the most reliable studies are showing over 35% in the country not having health care at all and/or can't afford it, I'd say this is a problem; having 1 out of three in the country called stupid, irresponsible, lazy, by an idiot like yourself! But even if one out of three are at fault, which they are not, their kids should be paying the consequences of being born in 1 out of 3 households.

Originally Posted by robfromsc

Take some responcibilty for your own life, stop waiting for daddy to come hold your hand. Grow up, turn off you frign tv and get a JOB.

Daddy passed over 15 years ago, and for 3 months after I was still collecting bills from the gangsters at the hospital and turning into his insurance. I don't have a TV and don't want one.
For the sake of your 5year old I hope you can always keep yours, but when we talk about politics, about health care, about human rights in decline, we are not talking about me or you or anyone here, We are talking about what is better for all!
I'd rather 20% more teachers are hired and the rest would get a raise, rather than paying millions a day to maintain obsolete nuclear weapons declared obsolete by DoD but nobody will take initiative to trash them.
Id rather be walking in a hospital or clinic with just an ID and nothing else and get health care instead of building an army base in Iraq to protect an Exxon oil drill.
I'd rather cops around don't treat certain people like animals so they turn around and act like them. I'd rather not see homeless and sick on the streets rather than have yet an other shuttle fly spy satellites up in the sky. I'd rather see more art and crafts schools built in the community rather than keep giving churches a tax break to rob the poor.

Hey, but that is what I want!
And he louder I shout it the more chances you screaming fascists will come out of your closet and MAKE ME shut up! And then there would be more of us, and more and more, and you can;t make us all shut up, with your guns, and your cops, and your TV purchased propaganda.

If you want to be informed please read your local version of indymedia.org
Chances are if you have an open mind you might start seeing why Rocky and Rob are having such a fit about me shutting up!

Peace bro! By any means necessary!

[robfromsc]

Originally Posted by ZeroGara

Just a friendly suggestion from a father of 3 who has seen it all. Thanks fella, but if I need advice, I'll find it in someone far more intelligent than you. The way you talk, i must have skipped childhood and dont rember that...lol. When you raise children you have to know things and don;t expect it all from doctors and systems. People are made predominantly of water, the quickest way to bring temperature down is to cool all the water down. A bathtub is your best friend! Furthermore, due to insurance liability bullshit, most fast acting fever reducing medication is by prescription only in the US, while in the rest of the industrialized world it is readily available to stock in at home.

Yeah, its called Motrin, took all of 45mns to knock it down. but the lawyer scared nurse at school could only give him a blankey.




Hey, I have an 02 with Erions on, undertail, and smoked double bubble! What do you have? a headache from your annoying ass. Along with my RG500, my Beta Zero Gara 260 trials, WR450f, etc.. No I don't have gold teeth, I think that is a tacky thing o have. I also suspect I'm older than you, but your small mind still didn;t get what I was clearly stating. It doesn;t matter what I or you or any other parent does, whether they are lazy, stupid, irresponsible, or wreckless. That kid born on US soil should not be paying the consequences of anyone's mistakes, especially if it is latr held respnsible to obey rules of this fascist government, dragged into war at 16, denied alcohol and cigarettes, when at the age of five he/she was denied health care because he/she had high fever!
Get it now?



When the most reliable studies are showing over 35% in the country not having health care at all and/or can't afford it, I'd say this is a problem; having 1 out of three in the country called stupid, irresponsible, lazy, by an idiot like yourself! Thanks..but atleast this idiot figured out how to get healthcare But even if one out of three are at fault, which they are not, their kids should be paying the consequences of being born in 1 out of 3 households.



Daddy passed over 15 years ago, and for 3 months after I was still collecting bills from the gangsters at the hospital and turning into his insurance. I don't have a TV and don't want one.
For the sake of your 5year old I hope you can always keep yours, but when we talk about politics, about health care, about human rights in decline, we are not talking about me or you or anyone here, We are talking about what is better for all!
I'd rather 20% more teachers are hired and the rest would get a raise, rather than paying millions a day to maintain obsolete nuclear weapons declared obsolete by DoD but nobody will take initiative to trash them.
Id rather be walking in a hospital or clinic with just an ID and nothing else and get health care instead of building an army base in Iraq to protect an Exxon oil drill.
I'd rather cops around don't treat certain people like animals so they turn around and act like them. I'd rather not see homeless and sick on the streets rather than have yet an other shuttle fly spy satellites up in the sky. I'd rather see more art and crafts schools built in the community rather than keep giving churches a tax break to rob the poor.

Hey, but that is what I want!
And he louder I shout it the more chances you screaming fascists will come out of your closet and MAKE ME shut up! And then there would be more of us, and more and more, and you can;t make us all shut up, with your guns, and your cops, and your TV purchased propaganda.

If you want to be informed please read your local version of indymedia.org
Chances are if you have an open mind you might start seeing why Rocky and Rob are having such a fit about me shutting up!

Peace bro! By any means necessary!

Hey fella, your not my bro...Mom and Dad werent family.

[RockyMt]

No TV huh? Yeah, I heard that Fox News has the technology now that if you watch Bill O'reilly, and look directly into his eyes, HE CAN STEAL YOUR SOUL! Be careful comrad, keep the kiddies away from the evil electric machines!

-Rocky-

PS does YOUR health care include leeches?

[RockyMt]

Oh yeah cindy, one more thing. If "one of the screaming facists" here "wanted to shut you up" as you fear, trust me, you wouldn't be heard from again.......The thing is, your delusions of grandeur have made you believe that A) we CARE what you say..........(not)
B) you are a source of ammusement to everyone else (sorta like watching a 3 legged dog try and scratch a flea. (true)

So no need to worry 'bout the "facists" coming to yer door, unless it's the PC facists that predominate The UC system here in California. Try, in let's say Berkeley, to set up a Marine Recruiting center......(in the "birthplace of free speech") How many code pink facists did it take to try to shut it down? (you should know, you musta been there!) But I guess it's "free speech" as long as YOU agree with it................

Semper Fi
-Rocky-

[robfromsc]

What's funny is that 'ol funny pants can't even debate, or have a challenged exchange with out throwing insults. His only rebutle is that I'm a "idiot", and "I must be older than you". That just shows your ignorance. Develop so personal interaction skills.

[RockyMt]

Actually, I'd rather have him practice breathing under water...............

-Rocky-

[Gog]

I think the record speaks for itself. Of course if people want to bury the record or hide, deny or conveniently exclude it, well now, what do we have then? A bunch of phony parameters but that just doesnt seem to bother you guys.

You'll call Rush and Co. great Americans for calling people names, spreading lies and being fuk arse cowards but you will soil a soldier such a s John Kerry for his "free speech". JK put his life on the line in the Mekong Delta while Rush got drunk and stoned at home, dreaming of ways to make money from stupid people.

So, then Rw dingalings want to claim they are the spirit of the Military and the voice of manliness. Nobody is free without your heroic manliness huh?... you are the roosters taking credit for the sunrise. Yet it seems the list of coward fuktards goes on..and on., while the list of honorable soldiers and citizens you offend goes on. So, on both prongs, your jabbers are flapping to the tune of hypocrisy. I mean calling French soldiers cowards all the time. FU. I'd rather be surrounded by overwhelmed French soldiers than right wing, stay at home, cowards hypocrites any day. A soldier in France is not your brother? heh.

The first warning that one is dealing with an idiot is the stupid slogans that are heralded as the gospel of excuses and failure. Everything is affected by the deranged imprinting. The law is broken, the dark side is chosen, the majority is denied, the resources are squandered and more and more enemies(boogeymen) are created.

When I see you guys self piercing your noses and passing the lead to the like of Palin, and ilk, it makes me want to vomit. So the idea of having a retarded moron in the top office is A-OK with you guys? Simply staggering. No wonder the list of reich wing catastrophes is so extensive. Look who the "champeons" are... nuts.

Falsely claim all you want that you're a special breed. When it comes to a real, certifiably justified war, most men will rise and be as good as any of you in heart, spirit and fight. Hell, a very high percentage women would too. The ego filled moronic, wannabe heroes will spew racism, sexism and condescension that reflects their spiritual imprintings and structured thought patterns. Not as "free" to think outside of these walls but able to feel "better" than others because of this prison mentality. That's why you are such a small percentage of humanity. Your willingness to kill others, at home and abroad, for property, faith or resources is indicative of the fear and greed that comes with mental programming. At one point in history, you were the driving force behind defense and discovery. Now that we ALL must cooperate or perish, you are a serious danger to the future of humanity. I know this, now you guys know it...

What to do? Not much we can do but suffer the ignorance of a group of people who's imprinting leaves them woefully anchored in a sea of change. We can vote and we can keep morons out of high office. We can vote and prevent ousy ideas that are touted as "American values". Get real, go google your classic, conservative heritage and values, you wont find 90% of the crap you're spewing now. If you're looking for google tags to find the root of conservative values try entering "libertarian":

Try to dig for an once of humility from a reich winger... you wont find it. It hasn't been "offered" to the child. As a matter of fact, there's no room left for humility because arrogance, greed, fear and violence has spread to every lobe. I have been reading the right's philosophy, what a disaster. Hey, it dont make me no liberal to call right wingers dumb and dangerous.

The most astounding fact is that the riech wing party wants to thump the bible and it's tenants on America and other nations. If we look at what is being trumpeted via the bible, it looks, smells, sounds and tastes nothing like the actions that preceded or followed the claim to be Christian. As a matter of FACT, the reich wing party of America does pretty much the opposite of what they claim baby Jesus wants. That would be enough, surely thats enough hypocrisy for one lifetime huh? Nope, same systematic defiling of the constitution follows the religious nightmare. One excuse after the other for breaking the letter and the spirit of the constitution. Hell, same arrogane and ignorace is happily blathered against God's creations man and earth. kill, plough and plunder... go reich wingers!
So, choose your Dan Quayles and you GWBs and your Palins and Limburgers, you are not choosing well but far, far greater people have fought and died to give you that right. The last thing an experienced, great soldier does is beat his drum and cheer lead for invasions, conquering nations or weaponry, a great soldier comes home and does what it takes to prevent war. Not listen to liars and war mongers.


Here, I left room for your reply,

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[RockyMt]

Let's see "reich wingers" being "name callers?" Well, lemme see, I count roughly THIRTY NINE times you used slanderous terms in one statement (if you wanted to call it that........) And do ALL of us on the board here, and brave men and women EVERYWHERE and don't EVER try to compare your sorry ass to ANYONE who has ever picked up arms to serve their country. You my little girl, are a whiny little bitch, who found out early in life that the way to get mommy and her "life partner" Bertha (your Daddy substitute) to pay attention to you was to play the part of cry baby victim. You have perfected your technique over the years, and now are just another cindy clone. You and your ilk are irrelevant, and merely white noise in the backround of meaningfull dialog. Isn't there a Nintendo GP online championship going on somewhere? It's safer for you to play online, you won't even skin yer girly knees.................

-Rocky-