Is health a product or a resource

[Gog]

Originally Posted by Baasinator

Does anybody understand what he just said?

I mean, seriously... what is your first language, Gog? I thought they spoke English up there - was I wrong? You don't understand what you read, and we can't understand what you write. Is it a translation problem?

Basically I said your political choices suck ass. Your logic is non existent and your denials prove you're a moron. Clear enough for ya?

[Baasinator]

Originally Posted by Gog

Basically I said your political choices suck ass. Your logic is non existent and your denials prove you're a moron. Clear enough for ya?

Oh, so clearly you didn't read what I wrote. I mean, you didn't understand it.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who laughs out loud when you talk about logic. But since you are so damn logical, please elaborate. What political choices are you referring to? What denials?

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by Baasinator

That's simply untrue. You're better than this, A51. Don't act like Gog and group everyone who might disagree with you into the same big ole' group of bad guys.

The whole Tea Party movement started because of these exact issues. Our government is spending money at a rate that cannot be sustained. Of course it's not all Obama's fault. The people that are paying attention to what's really killing America are not fans of Bush, McCain, or Obama because those guys believe in, and deliver, a bigger government that we cannot afford. There are plenty of Republicans, Democrats, and others who understand this, and they've been more vocal than ever in the last year. People have a right to be pissed off. I hope it continues and I hope the anger grows as people become more informed, although the message is becoming more watered down as more people glam on and try to bring other issues to the table, but whatever... it's not a Republican vs. Democrat issue because the leaders of both parties have it wrong. There isn't a dime's worth of difference between them when you look at the scope of our problems.

I love your example because at the last Tea Party event around here, I was talking to a Democrat farmer specifically about farm subsidies. They don't help all farmers, after all.

Farm subsidies only help Republicans.
Hah, hah, just kidding.
I'm sure there are many conservatives and others who understand how protests work. The sqeeky wheel gets the grease, or media coverage. The liberals had their sqeekers during Bush and now the cons have theirs. I think everyone knows that. It's like payback. And it's very entertaining watching the right show off their ignorrance, their idiotic slogans, their bubbling hatred. It confirms what so many of us know. It's a nation of idiots.

Green Day:
Don't want to be an American idiot.
Don't want a nation under the new mania
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mind **** America.

Well maybe I'm the faggot America.
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda.
Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along to the age of paranoia.

I don't see anyone carrying signs about what happened before Obama. What led to the bailouts. Why we are spending trillions fighting someone elses war in Iraq. Or how the wealthy have made out like bandits due to Bush. Or any number of other things. Anyone who protested both Bush and Obama gets a pass. Somehow I don't think there were many in that crowd, if any.

[Gog]

I have never seen a baseball crowd boo a relief pitcher for not winning, especially after he's been called in to pitch after the first guy let the score go to 10-0. Bad coaching to let it go that far with the first guy? Or a good call by "staying the course"?

Only an ignorant, stupid crowd would blame the loss of the game on the relief pitcher... only the retarded folks would blame him after his first pitch....Only deniers would NOT look to the coach for responsibility for the bad call.

[RockyMt]

Now it's baseball, gag, you amaze (and amuse) us all...........now go take yer meds like a good girl. In a way it's kinda tragic reading yer posts, rarely do I encounter such a bitter, jealous boy, didn't daddy buy you a bike when you were young(er)? Or was it a girls bike and all the kids teased you, and made you jealous of their shiny toys, when all you had were Barbies?

Semper Fi!

-Rocky-

[Baasinator]

Originally Posted by Area 51

Farm subsidies only help Republicans.
Hah, hah, just kidding.

Good one!

Originally Posted by Area 51

I'm sure there are many conservatives and others who understand how protests work. The sqeeky wheel gets the grease, or media coverage. The liberals had their sqeekers during Bush and now the cons have theirs. I think everyone knows that. It's like payback. And it's very entertaining watching the right show off their ignorrance, their idiotic slogans, their bubbling hatred. It confirms what so many of us know. It's a nation of idiots.

Green Day:
Don't want to be an American idiot.
Don't want a nation under the new mania
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mind **** America.

Well maybe I'm the faggot America.
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda.
Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along to the age of paranoia.

I don't see anyone carrying signs about what happened before Obama. What led to the bailouts. Why we are spending trillions fighting someone elses war in Iraq. Or how the wealthy have made out like bandits due to Bush. Or any number of other things. Anyone who protested both Bush and Obama gets a pass. Somehow I don't think there were many in that crowd, if any.

You don't see any of that because you aren't there, I imagine. If you're talking about the big march in Washington, of course the media is going to show the most outrageous things they can find. And there were a lot of nuts in that crowd, for sure. Like you said, it is entertaining!

I like Green Day, but I like what Larry Elder says better. He calls it the Elvis Factor: 10% of Americans believe that Elvis is alive and 8% believe that if you send him a letter he will receive it. I have no idea if that's true, but it's a good reminder that a certain portion of our population is always going to be a bit nutty.

But I wasn't in Washington -- I can only speak for the smaller local events that I've seen in this part of the country. It's nothing like the images you saw from Washington. They absolutely did protest against the Bush/Paulson bailout. (That's when people really started getting angry, isn't it?) In fact, around here the protests are mostly against the Republicans because that's who we elect. We don't have many Democrats to hate on. In that regard, I kinda miss living in CA. There was a lot more to complain about!

[dabyabby]

You know what I like is the stubborn foolishness to NEVER see a better way!!!

To always stick by your beliefs not matter what, if you ask me, that ignorance is what will bring down this nation!

[Area 51]

Ignorrance is bliss. That and apple pie.

[RockyMt]

Watching berry 'n pelosi squirm as their "plan" goes down in flames is bliss

-Rocky-

[Area 51]

It's more about the people than it is about the plan, no?

[twin-nut]

As to the original question, health is a resource. The health of a nation is a strong resource when it is "good" health. Unfortunately, many Americans do not care enough about their own health, and obesity, hypertension, heart disease, and diabetes, etc., are the result of not caring. This drags down the whole of any nation and is especially true in the land of fast food and ER visits being seen by many as their primary car providers.

Health care is a product in the same since that legal services from a lawyer or financial services are a "product." You pay for what you get. You pay more and you usually get more. Like it or not this is reality for a free market capitalist society. This is only a huge issue because it is an expensive product. If it were cheap and good, we would not be discussing it. It is too expensive because of lack of tort reform and defensive medicine which is a direct result of malpractice claims and because 40-50 million people think they do not have to pay for their care. Many of these people who cannot "afford" medical care can afford eating out, television, ipods and cellphones, air conditioning and expensive shoes, etc.

Politicians care more about getting reelected than actually fixing the problem at the source. That's is why most are lawyers and not doctors.

[nycstripes]

Originally Posted by ZeroGara

Just a friendly suggestion from a father of 3 who has seen it all. When you raise children you have to know things and don;t expect it all from doctors and systems. People are made predominantly of water, the quickest way to bring temperature down is to cool all the water down. A bathtub is your best friend! Furthermore, due to insurance liability bullshit, most fast acting fever reducing medication is by prescription only in the US, while in the rest of the industrialized world it is readily available to stock in at home.




Hey, I have an 02 with Erions on, undertail, and smoked double bubble! What do you have? Along with my RG500, my Beta Zero Gara 260 trials, WR450f, etc.. No I don't have gold teeth, I think that is a tacky thing o have. I also suspect I'm older than you, but your small mind still didn;t get what I was clearly stating. It doesn;t matter what I or you or any other parent does, whether they are lazy, stupid, irresponsible, or wreckless. That kid born on US soil should not be paying the consequences of anyone's mistakes, especially if it is latr held respnsible to obey rules of this fascist government, dragged into war at 16, denied alcohol and cigarettes, when at the age of five he/she was denied health care because he/she had high fever!
Get it now?



When the most reliable studies are showing over 35% in the country not having health care at all and/or can't afford it, I'd say this is a problem; having 1 out of three in the country called stupid, irresponsible, lazy, by an idiot like yourself! But even if one out of three are at fault, which they are not, their kids should be paying the consequences of being born in 1 out of 3 households.



Daddy passed over 15 years ago, and for 3 months after I was still collecting bills from the gangsters at the hospital and turning into his insurance. I don't have a TV and don't want one.
For the sake of your 5year old I hope you can always keep yours, but when we talk about politics, about health care, about human rights in decline, we are not talking about me or you or anyone here, We are talking about what is better for all!
I'd rather 20% more teachers are hired and the rest would get a raise, rather than paying millions a day to maintain obsolete nuclear weapons declared obsolete by DoD but nobody will take initiative to trash them.
Id rather be walking in a hospital or clinic with just an ID and nothing else and get health care instead of building an army base in Iraq to protect an Exxon oil drill.
I'd rather cops around don't treat certain people like animals so they turn around and act like them. I'd rather not see homeless and sick on the streets rather than have yet an other shuttle fly spy satellites up in the sky. I'd rather see more art and crafts schools built in the community rather than keep giving churches a tax break to rob the poor.

Hey, but that is what I want!
And he louder I shout it the more chances you screaming fascists will come out of your closet and MAKE ME shut up! And then there would be more of us, and more and more, and you can;t make us all shut up, with your guns, and your cops, and your TV purchased propaganda.

If you want to be informed please read your local version of indymedia.org
Chances are if you have an open mind you might start seeing why Rocky and Rob are having such a fit about me shutting up!

Peace bro! By any means necessary!

WOW..I mean WOW....you're an buffoon of the highest order sir..not quite as bad as Gog...but in many ways, worse since you live here. I personally don't want you to shut your mouth, its actually enlightening to hear the hard leftist/statist garbage flow freely from your trap. It removes all doubt about what a mess you really are. While you're on your leftist/state loving soap box, you should also take the time to thank a soldier for being able to spew your hatred for the freedoms of this country at will.

The only Fascist I can think of here is the moron you voted for to be president.

[Gog]

Originally Posted by nycstripes

WOW..I mean WOW....you're an buffoon of the highest order sir..not quite as bad as Gog...but in many ways, worse since you live here. I personally don't want you to shut your mouth, its actually enlightening to hear the hard leftist/statist garbage flow freely from your trap. It removes all doubt about what a mess you really are. While you're on your leftist/state loving soap box, you should also take the time to thank a soldier for being able to spew your hatred for the freedoms of this country at will.

The only Fascist I can think of here is the moron you voted for to be president.

NYC, seriously, with your choices being so poor, you lack the credibility to call others moronic. Did you just jettison your recent past? Do you really feel that all "that" is in the past? It's so far in the past that the problems you caused are the fault of the new, fascists? Thats just ridiculous and you know it.

You and your pals voted and chanted for people who did more harm to your country, and the world, than ANY others in history.

I know you have some great points and some real concerns but calling Obama a fascist while you're quoting Beck and Rush... hmm.

I love my families police history, there's a lot there to honor and respect. But I freaking hate rule breaking racists/bully cops. Hate em. I love the pro soldier and brave hero but I hate racists, marauding mercenaries. You guys seem have a problem separating them. You cant tell the difference between a coward liar and a certified, decorated veteran. Same way you cant seem to discern the difference between a threat and a lie.

Unlike you I did the research into your claims... they fell short...sorry.

Tell us this: If the same amount of money that went into the right wing Iraq War, and profiteering corporations...if that same amount went into American "social" causes.. would you be safer, healthier and wealthier? Keep in mind we know Iraq was a lie, we know it was completely mismanaged and we know it's not the success that it was promised to be. We already know that 5000 people would still be alive, the multitudes of horridly injured would be normal and free and the environment would be better off without war it's machines oiled and stoked and employed in fruitless, destructive and dishonorable fashions.

You chanted for a pathological, law breaking liar and now manufacture lies against an honest man. Thats just sad...

[nycstripes]

Originally Posted by Gog

NYC, seriously, with your choices being so poor, you lack the credibility to call others moronic. Did you just jettison your recent past? Do you really feel that all "that" is in the past? It's so far in the past that the problems you caused are the fault of the new, fascists? Thats just ridiculous and you know it.

You and your pals voted and chanted for people who did more harm to your country, and the world, than ANY others in history.

I know you have some great points and some real concerns but calling Obama a fascist while you're quoting Beck and Rush... hmm.

I love my families police history, there's a lot there to honor and respect. But I freaking hate rule breaking racists/bully cops. Hate em. I love the pro soldier and brave hero but I hate racists, marauding mercenaries. You guys seem have a problem separating them. You cant tell the difference between a coward liar and a certified, decorated veteran. Same way you cant seem to discern the difference between a threat and a lie.

Unlike you I did the research into your claims... they fell short...sorry.

Tell us this: If the same amount of money that went into the right wing Iraq War, and profiteering corporations...if that same amount went into American "social" causes.. would you be safer, healthier and wealthier? Keep in mind we know Iraq was a lie, we know it was completely mismanaged and we know it's not the success that it was promised to be. We already know that 5000 people would still be alive, the multitudes of horridly injured would be normal and free and the environment would be better off without war it's machines oiled and stoked and employed in fruitless, destructive and dishonorable fashions.

You chanted for a pathological, law breaking liar and now manufacture lies against an honest man. Thats just sad...

If your friend throws arond the term Fascist with regard to anyone that is not in line with his Statist train of thought then he should look up the term and compare it to the current administration's policy of taking over banks, car companies and the intent on taking over health care too.
I am not in support of American Leftist social causes...so your argument is moot.
The only one's chanting are the supporters of the Left. You and your kind, the blind followers of Obama's nonsense. I can freely say that I did not approve of many things that Bush did. You on the other hand and many like you cannot fathom voicing any criticism of his actions. That's pretty strange.
As for Honor...who are you to decide what's honorable? What have you done besides voice criticism? What have you sacrificed...Ever? Being related to someone in the past that may have had honor and a sense of duty does not translate to you having any at all. You have to earn it.

[Gog]

Originally Posted by nycstripes

If your friend throws arond the term Fascist with regard to anyone that is not in line with his Statist train of thought then he should look up the term and compare it to the current administration's policy of taking over banks, car companies and the intent on taking over health care too.

First of all. Facists DO NOT consult with other parties and rivals for consensus and cooperation. I hope you can understand that. It makes your claim of fascism ridiculous. You are calling people statist after your Bush era, laughable. There is more discourse with Obama from withing than GWB & friends EVER invited or debated. Do you really think Obama would initiate take over unless he had been handed a broken country? Look towards Clinton fool. It would have been more of the same, which, by all accounts was very good, minus the blow job and the ensuing lie. Your fascists claims are just another retarded flip flop of truth and actualities, typical right, cant face the facts and take responsibility, It has nothing to do with left or right, it's right or wrong. You had you chance to chant and we all know what you chose....
I am not in support of American Leftist social causes...so your argument is moot.
The only one's chanting are the supporters of the Left. You and your kind, the blind followers of Obama's nonsense. I can freely say that I did not approve of many things that Bush did.
Oh you can can you? Hahahah what a joke! Like what? Tell us please....

You on the other hand and many like you cannot fathom voicing any criticism of his actions. That's pretty strange.
My criticisms of Obama are very deep indeed. I am a greeniy and I dont see much happening from him. I hope it will come. But first he has to undo the stupid work of you guys. Just read an you will know that the same assholery that was loosed
upon us in every other field was doubly so with the ecology....
As for Honor...who are you to decide what's honorable? What have you done besides voice criticism? What have you sacrificed...Ever? Being related to someone in the past that may have had honor and a sense of duty does not translate to you having any at all. You have to earn it.

Gee, does that work in reverse? If you champion a dishonorable movement, does that make you dishonorable?
If you vote for liars does it make you a liar? So if I state my honorable actions you will then think of me honorably? HWat if they are ONLY community based actions? No guns, no wars, no invasions....
I mean, I read your posts against John Kerry's war service, here's a guy who earned it... what did that get him? A charge of the slanderous fright brigades lies... sigh.
I suppose you have a clever answer for everything, maybe we all do. I'd really like to know how you disagreed with Bush, you know I have done so at almost every turn, so show us the common ground...if you can.

[nycstripes]

Its not about showing you common ground its about your inability to disagree with anything obama does. Whatever honor Kerry had by serving in Vietnam he lost by the method of his service and his deplorable character.

[RockyMt]

..........And don't forget him throwing SOMEONE ELSE'S Purple Heart into the Patomic in front of an anti war crowd (complete with Hanoi jane cheering him on...) claiming it was HIS...... (and then lying to congress about what he "saw") I can name a few THOUSAND of my brothers who would LOVE to "debate" his actions in an alley somewhere!
gag, YOU are the LAST person who can speak to us of dignity, courage, or selfless service. Maybe you and slick willie (or berry) can form a circle jerk, and compare ways YOU AVOIDED serving ya little puke. Meanwhile enjoy the freedoms OTHERS have provided you with, WE however don't need OR want your thanks OR approval.

-Rocky-

[Gog]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

..........And don't forget him throwing SOMEONE ELSE'S Purple Heart into the Patomic in front of an anti war crowd (complete with Hanoi jane cheering him on...) claiming it was HIS...... (and then lying to congress about what he "saw") I can name a few THOUSAND of my brothers who would LOVE to "debate" his actions in an alley somewhere!

Get your facts straight before your start beating up your superiors.
FactCheck.org: Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry's War Record

gag, YOU are the LAST person who can speak to us of dignity, courage, or selfless service. Maybe you and slick willie (or berry) can form a circle jerk, and compare ways YOU AVOIDED serving ya little puke.
That's (gag) puke to you cockflea.

Meanwhile enjoy the freedoms OTHERS have provided you with, WE however don't need OR want your thanks OR approval.
YOU dont speak for WE... thank gawd for that....

-Rocky-

cockflea, I dont want you "protecting freedom" when you talk of conquering foreign lands and shooting their females, torturing people, suspending human rights....bullying your lame, lying ass off. You are acting like a brownshirt.... but dont piss off the All American Rabbis...

Rabbi Sherwin Wine:

"There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.

The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity.

This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies."

[Le Kiwi]

So, the Rabbi Sherwin knows Rocky, then ?
I guess I'd come to the conclusion that some Americans are throwbacks too if I ever had the misfortune to bump into Rocky or any of the other "Might is Reich" wing-nuts who loudly bray that we're somehow "safer" because they obeyed bad orders from self-interested people to do dumb things in the wrong place at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons.

Yeah, "Bravo", Rocky.

My Lai made me safer ?
Blowing millions of "gooks" to pieces and napalming Cambodia made me "safer" ?
Ousting President Allende made me "safer" ?
Ousting Mossadegh made me "safer" ?
Supporting the Shah and the Savak and a dozen vicious dictators around the globe made me "safer" ?
Supporting blindly and without a clue Israel has made me "safer" ?
Creating the School of the Americas and all the scumbags who now run drugs into America and elsewhere has made me "Safer" ?
Threatening the World with atomic hellfire MAYBE made me safer, assuming there was a viable and valid threat in the first place, but considerable doubt exists, only, you need a mind that isn't dogmatically nailed down to see this....
Supporting Bin Laden and the Taliban made me safer ?
Supporting the Saudis and their vicious analcentric Wahabbism made me "safer" ?
Killing the only counter-balance to fundamentalist Iran in the area and destroying the cradle of civilization in Iraq made me "safer" ??

What, exactly, did you do in your "glorious" servitude to the wealthy elites that has made me "safer", Rocky ?

Forget the bullshit about how you "saved the planet" from the nazis your elites had aided and supported, because Reality doesn't agree with you. Despite your heroic actions in the Pacific and in the European theater of war, you merely brought the war to a swifter ending and stopped us having to learn Russian, da ?

Stand up and be Reality-checked, Rocky.

[Le Kiwi]

I'm going to post this again, just to savor it.
Thanks, Gog, and "Shalom" Rabbi Sherwin.

"The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity.

This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies."