We just bought a DS1000SS engine here in Indy. Looking to get over 100HP with a 1080, DP cams, and 2mm over intakes. I rode the last 100+HP S2RS we built and the only problem with the bike was that I didn't own it. This thread is good stuff.
Sure Matt - and I couldn't even convince you to ride my 1000SS when we were at Mid-Ohio... Maybe you can to post up the before/after chart from the DP cam instalation on my superbike here.
I look forward to having you drop in the 2mm over valves and TB work on my bike this winter. Maybe I will let you take it for a ride then.
I'd love to see you build a 1000SS for the shop - it would be great to be able to race in something other than just Thunderbike. Maybe I have a slight chance to keep up if you are on a LW bike rather than the 748R.
Sure Matt - and I couldn't even convince you to ride my 1000SS when we were at Mid-Ohio... Maybe you can to post up the before/after chart from the DP cam instalation on my superbike here.
I look forward to having you drop in the 2mm over valves and TB work on my bike this winter. Maybe I will let you take it for a ride then.
I'd love to see you build a 1000SS for the shop - it would be great to be able to race in something other than just Thunderbike. Maybe I have a slight chance to keep up if you are on a LW bike rather than the 748R.
George
You know I am scared of your bike but I guess I will have to suck it up and ride it because it is an amazing machine. I am not afraid of the engine; just an overall paranoia of the time and money you have in it. It was awesome to see it in action at Mid-Ohio and earlier in the year at Blackhawk.
Foster gave me the go ahead to rebuild the old Moto-ST DS1000SS last week and there is also another engine on the way. The deal is if I do the labor he will let me race it next season. I have no excuses now.
OK, here is the dyno graph of my 1000DS motor before and after the installation of DP cams. Inititial build includes 1080 Pistal pistons, lightened and polished crank, lightened 749 gears, Carrillo rods, mildly ported heads and TPO-R pod filters. It is worth noting that we are running very mild compression - in fact it runs just fine on pump gas and we never had any detonation or issues. We picked up lmost 10 bhp and 3.5 lbs/ft of torque by going to the DP cams with some careful tuning by Matt.
The bike is already amazingly fast for a LW bike. More work to come this winter and we expect to gain even more power as we go. It would be very easy to just increase compression to pick up easy power and torque; but we want to keep the compression low to take it easy on the internals so we are going to do some work on the heads to see where we can go before we start increasing compession and going to race fuel.
Some people claim to get 110hp out of theese 1000ds engines just by going 1080cc and dp cams and i my oppinion that is bull.
I have a pretty nice engine going 1123cc, hc, ported heads etc and this is what i ended up with. Do belive me im not dissepointed in any way, it runns great and has hammer torque. Im hoping to get 4 more hp out of this winters mods but maby there is noting to gain, who knowes.
For thsi season im getting a spaghetti headers exhaust and custom 50mm throttle bodies to help it breath better.
This engine sits in a sport classic which has a reallt bad airbox which i am getting rid of, maby building a custom airbox but i havent decided yet. Mostly for air filtering and getting noice down a bit for trackdays.
You can follow my thread here: Graphs on some boring stuff 2v.
Some people claim to get 110hp out of theese 1000ds engines just by going 1080cc and dp cams and i my oppinion that is bull.
Not to disagree with you but, on a full race motor that will always run specialty gas (oxygenated high octane gas like VP MRX01) - I don't think 110 would be all that difficult to achieve fronm a 1080cc DS motor. I have seen that there are huge gains in power and torque possible if you get agressive with the compression. Of course, in addition to the specialty fuel considerations there is going to be the issue of frequent tear-downs and the risk of cracking the cases which just were not designed for that type of compression and power.
Now, all of this said, getting that kind of power on an engine that would run on pump gas and would be comfortable to ride on the street would be a lot harder.
I suspect that you are probably right about the breathing on your SC. As power goes up getting air into the combustion chamber becomes a big issue. Bigger intake valves probably would help more than bigger Throttle Bodies though as I would bet the vavles are the most restrictive part in the assembly.
We are going to 2mm over intake valves this winter - with some porting work on the head we hope that will give us an additional 3-4 bhp.
We will se when i get back from the dyno what happens.
My build is never intended to be run on special fuel etc, its a street bike that is made for some trackdays.
What i ment was that people claim to get this hp easily with just thoose mods no special fuel etc.
im dreaming/hoping to be in the 108-110hp region when im done and with a torque of 100+.
I think that there is more gain to be had with the shape of the throttle bodies(tapered) and no bends then the size actually.
The german tuning firm dsm is getting 118hp from their race engine with stock valves size, and they have no plans on going bigger. so they should not be the biggest problem. some people just go big some go for shapes
Its all in what you belive in, im gonna stick with the stockers for a bit longer at least.
Thats what i love, everyone has their own way of tuning and that way we can learn from each other.
It is a notorious hard to please dyno, i have mapped 30 bikes + there now, and most people get disspointed with the numbers, so I always have them mentally prepped before, youre going to see low numbers youre going to see low numbers, some take it good, for a relative value (what it is) others not so good unfortunately.
Its not a good thing to have a low reading dyno dont misunderstand me, but its whats at hand for a reasonable cost. It should prefererably show same as every other dynojet dyno, for me it wont matter much as it is relative but for the beginner in dynoworld a number may be very important.
I applaud and try to learn from every one tuning, thats how I once started in the eighties and wont quit that, that is my base filosophy, there is always something new to learn.
However here is the comparison of a stock 1100 hymo with dp cams and full system versus lechefs sc, best run of both fully mapped fully heat sinked and optimum temps.
They share most of the exterior stuff so I think its a valid comparison.
It is a notorious hard to please dyno, i have mapped 30 bikes + there now, and most people get disspointed with the numbers, so I always have them mentally prepped before, youre going to see low numbers youre going to see low numbers, some take it good, for a relative value (what it is) others not so good unfortunately.
Its not a good thing to have a low reading dyno dont misunderstand me, but its whats at hand for a reasonable cost. It should prefererably show same as every other dynojet dyno, for me it wont matter much as it is relative but for the beginner in dynoworld a number may be very important.
Very true! Both charts look spot on to me - the chart on the stock 11000 DS motor is exactly in line with what I have seen at reputable shops. Of course, there are always those who have correction factors set up to read higher - but that is of little value.
The one thing dyno's don't show well in these charts is how quickly they rev and build power. If we could control other factors it would be interesting if we overlayed a time to speed chart for roll-ons in 4th gear from 2,000 rpm to red-line and show that side-by side with the bhp and ft-lbs chart.
Even then, in the real world it is more important to carry higher corner speeds and get on the gas earlier.
Thanks for all of the info. When I get back, I will set the cams at 112 and see where that leads me. I would rather do that then haul it 5 hours to have Doug remap the ecu. Will keep you posted.
Well, back at it again. I FINALLY got my 50mm throttle bodies working. I had issues with the tps, but after I had an aluminum bracket made up, they seem to work fine. Have about 300 miles testing and they seem to work good (though still need fine tuning). I will be taking it in this week to see what the results are and where my air/fuel mixture is and I am hopeful in the comparisons in regards to the dyno. Mike
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Sorry about that. My battery decided to spring a leak while at the dyno. I have been installing one of those Ferrous batteries for the back end. Have wanted to do that for quite some time. This week I should get her in if everything works out.
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Once a task is begun, never leave it till it's done. Be that labur great or small, do it well or not at all.
Well, got it back. The temperature and humidity outside were horrible as compared to the previous time. So even though I am down on this graph, I would think that the HP is somewhere between 4-8 hp extra due to the temp/humidity. Anyways, I think I will tinker a little more with the injectors and then take it in in the fall with air filters attached and see where I am at. All in all, 50mm throttle bodies will work on the 2v bikes. The one thing that does bother me is the dip between 5600-6400 rpm, not really sure why....
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Once a task is begun, never leave it till it's done. Be that labur great or small, do it well or not at all.
I ran in to the problem that the injectors flow less then the previus ones i used and i needed too boost fuel pressure to get enoght fuel on WOT.
Are your injector set to 100% open? is air fuel in the ballpark?
You get the drop off exactly where the torque peak accurs and that where the engine needs the most fuel, exactly yhe same as where i got my fuel shortige.
Seems strange that your down on hp, ok for a small change in hp due to weather.
The dip might be a classic take from bottom and add to top but your not getting the top end some how.
The air/fuel is on, but I will look into the fuel pressure.
I need to do some more tweaking on the injectors and get some pod filters. Also, I need to install those lambda plugs in the headers so I can get each cylinder mapped. Once I get that done I will take it back and see where I am at.
Maybe the injectors are just too big for that engine. Anyway, it was worth a try.
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Once a task is begun, never leave it till it's done. Be that labur great or small, do it well or not at all.
Copy that.
Keep going with the 50mm TB.
The std 900SSie -99 with IAW15.A0 ECU are using 45mm TB with IW031 injectors flowing 270cc at 3 bar.
And you are running 50mm TB with injectors flowing the same.
So that should not be a problem with your spec of the engine.
Compare that to M620 running same setup as a M1000 : 45mm TB & IWP043 injectors with 330cc at 3 bar.
I guess it is "just" a matter of tuning the fuel & spark for the setup.
By the way, how do you adjust the fuel and spark ?
I am running a 1000DS engine with a modified IAW15M.A8 ECU to be able to adjust all the values live while running.
/Henrik
I had the ecu retarded by Doug in Minnesota, but that was more guess work than anything I think. I would actually have to bring it in to him to do it right.
Thanks for the info on the injectors.
Mike
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Once a task is begun, never leave it till it's done. Be that labur great or small, do it well or not at all.
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