Need info on 944 upgrade...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smakbiam &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just an FYI, heard the long intake runners are crappy. Might want to look into the shorter intake manifolds if you want more powa.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hi Smakbiam ...

I see you've found your way here from the DML.

"Crappy"? Well, all things are relative, yes? Given what you claimed to know, er have heard, on the DML, you should also have heard that the intake ports are more crappy than the long intake runners. And then deduced that one would really need to do something about that as well when addressing the long intake manifolds.

BUT ... that costs $,$$$. Most folks only like to spend $$$ at a time. Few people have the opportunity (or stupidity? -- like me) to go all out on a bike or its engine.

To do things well requires a systemic approach. And then it all starts adding up in price. Luckily, there are a few "simple" items which bolt on and produce great results. I personally think that the FCRs are the most cost effective. I won't say that high comp pistons or 944 kits don't wake up a bike, but I think they aren't as effective (or easy) as FCRs.

Chris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BUT ... that costs $,$$$. Most folks only like to spend $$$ at a time. Few people have the opportunity (or stupidity? -- like me) to go all out on a bike or its engine.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey Chris

Any way I can get one head done at a time?

Gentlemen,
Can the BCM 944 kit be done to a 800ss motor?

the 800 is a stroked 750. the biggest you can over bore std 750 cylinders is 90.5mm i believe, 2.5mm over std. bcm have pistons for that. which would give 849cc in an 800. altho you'd need pistons with 2.25mm less deck height than the 750 based ones to allow for the increased stroke.

the stud spacing is smaller than the 900 engines which limits the cylinder wall thickness to a given maximum which in turn limits the max bore size.

there's more capacity stuff here: http://moto-one.com.au/perform....html

Thanks for noting that Chris...

My understanding is most use the shorter intakes for the track for a reason, ducati shortend and straightend the intake ports in their heads for a reason... perhaps my wording of "crappy" was too harsh for those with longer intakes... but for the most part the shorter the and straighter the distance between the injec/carbs and the cylinder the better for response and overall HP.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smakbiam &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... perhaps my wording of "crappy" was too harsh for those with longer intakes... .</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm, indeed. It's good to have a new source of information here in the SS forum, especially considering your knowledge of the older carbed animals, like mine. I'll take all the help/info I can get. The more opinionated and overstated the better...that way I can be sure it's true.

All Chris has done for this community is risk his financial well-being by making a business out of his passion for motorcycles, offer well-considered advice based on years of experience in the industry, separate the BS from what really works for those of us who simply don't know, and spend countless hours on the phone and answering emails each week from ignorant Ducati owners like myself, often for no return whatsoever. It's like he's ethical and professional or something.

Of course, he also sold me a set of FCR 41s that allowed my bike to realize what was only its potential since it left Bologne in 1997. Maybe it'll run even better once I replace the crappy runners.

Bob Kelly (The Other, Correct Spelling)

How odd. Smakbiam said what his understanding was that he heard and then that he perhaps worded it too strongly, and this backlash? Lay off. Reckless_Kelly actually provided some potentially useful insight on the runners then there's some pointless flaming. Of course there are other things to do. That is obvious. But that's not to say that replacing the runners wouldn't be a good thing to do. The original poster said he was looking for ANY AND ALL INFO on this and it hadn't been discussed before.
As far as FCRs being a great upgrade universally? They may be great but I will be damned if I am throwing down $800 plus dismantling my bike for that increase. For some people they're rad, but for me and my ~$3000 94 Monster? And I lose my choke, on a daily driver? Oh, hell naw, makes no sense for me.
Going by the same logic used against Smakbiam, DesmoBob's got lame heads since it's a 97, so he should "deduce that one would really need to do something about that as well."
Anyhow, here I am and so on, but seriously, Kalaazar asked for any and all ideas and Smakbiam threw one out there. No need to lambaste. (Note - not knocking Chris or his bidness, heard many good things. just this thread)
Anyhow, back on topic - cams are super expensive and hard to find. 944s are easy-ish to do from my understanding, and they go up on ebay periodically relatively cheap. Very reliable from what I hear. Rejet it. It'll bump the ponies some but it's not going to be beating the 4vs down or anything. Clutch? All in how you ride, and if you have the same gearing, shouldn't be noticeable. On a CR dropping tons of cash might not really be the best financial idea, but I have no idea what sort of shape it is in, or if you care about the resale.
That is all. Flame on.

Hey, man, it wasn't a flame; just defending a guy who makes major contributions without rancor or personal agendas, who is too ethical to come on here and call a duck a duck.

I felt just as you do about the FCRs. My SS is my only bike, and I commute on it, too...even when it's cold out, which was a major concern. I also paid like $5K for my bike, so the FCRs, proportionally speaking, was a major investment. It took me almost two years to make it.

They're worth it. That's all I'll say. Well, that and turns out I don't need the choke...I feel pretty good about my bike warming up at 2500 rpm when it's 30 degrees out, and NOT worrying about dumping fuel into my engine and washing all the oil from the cylinder walls, or standing there trying to put my winter gear on and blip the throttle at the same time. You don't have that to worry about in CA; I doubt you'd miss your choke either.

I posted months ago wondering if those with FCRs were just justifying there investment with all their rave reviews. I was wrong. They rock. And that's a qualified opinion, because I have them on my f*cking bike.

And I guess I'll have to respond to your comment---and logic---about the heads on my bike. Yes, 2V Ducatis don't have the best flowing heads, which is why an $800 investment (for noticeable, real-world, torquey and way-fun gains) made more sense than spending thousands to "fix" my heads. Aw, hell naw, THAT makes no sense. Like Chris said, the intake ports are "crappier" than the long runners, and I'll add that the Mikunis are "way crappier" than the FCRs. It's a good investment...

Dude, all I'm saying is that CK treated me and a lot of folks right, even giving me advice some time ago that cost him a sale. That's ethical standards. Plus, he knows what works, and what doesn't, and that's professionalism. There's a difference between hyperbole and qualified opinion, and I think it was the latter that Kalazaar was seeking.

Is this a flame, too? Well, opinions are like a**holes, right? Everybody's got one.

Hey b.rock, I think the 6~8 hours of labor to tear down a bike for the 944 is a lot more work than to swap out the carbs. While the FCRs may take away your choke, the high compression of the 944 slugs takes away the lower octane fuels from you. If/when it comes time to sell the bike, it's real easy to resell the FCRs. Takes a more anal type of person to go in and swap back the pistons and cylinders to OEM. For every mod, there are positive and negative affects.

By the way, I was kinda hard on smakbaim because of some smak he stirred up on a different forum, which got ugly and out of hand.

Hey Bob, good to hear that you're ---&gt; You're the second guy in a week that called me up to rave about the carbs.

Chris

Yeah but his motor's already out, right? That cuts down on the time a lot, and it's often cheaper than the FCRs. I'm not knocking FCRs in particular, just saying they're not the only solution, or even a good one for some people. I definitely do miss the choke, having been without it for a while (long-ish story).
Re: the heads I was more referring to yours (Bob) being a 97, with the smaller ports than other years.
Anyhow I thought it was pointless to jump on him for pointing out another potential option the OP might explore. I well remember the other discussion but that is not really relevant to this.
CK jumped on Smak on this by saying that something else was crappy too. Not whether it would be helpful relative to cost or other useful info. If you know it I would be interested to hear it.
That's all.

Look. Lets be real about this sort of thing. There are three different aspects to power in an engine, yes? 1. Fuel Metering 2. Gas Flow 3. Compression/Spark/Combustion Efficiency. Everything to do with the engine's BASE POWER OUTPUT has to do with those three things. What is the most signifigant power change? Well if you do things systemically, then you will have more than the sum of each individual change. But if, like the majority of us, you can only do one thing at a time for $ and time reasons, then do the thing which will benefit you the most with the least negative aspects. Carbs are Fuel Metering. Head porting, exhaust systems, intake manifold runners, cams as well, these are all Gas Flow items. Dual spark heads, higher compression, higher power coils, these are Combustion Efficiency items. Any thing you do, you will be realizing more power. But some things go together. Increasing intake air flow will not help a huge amount unless you increase exhaust. Which will require fuel delivery changes, for more air is now being flowed. Air box mods, etc. Same for increasing cc size. So you are automatically into systemic changes. Seems to me that unless you really want to get into that, the most effective ways to increase power without going into changes of other things would be mainly Combusion Efficiency items. Seems to me, if you are going conservatively, without wanting to do a huge amount of work to your bike and reducing negative effects, you will want to do one thing mainly, and that is increasing compression ratio. Compression will increase power from the flow you are already getting. There is not a negative except a heavier starter load. You will not have to give up a choke. You will not have to worry about resale, because it is cosmetically the same. It is systemically independent, so no other mods are required to maximize potential. Of course, you also must realize that you will be limiting what you could have done with the same amount of work if you WERE to do later systemic changes. But for me, 80 hp is plenty, and I'm not competing with SBK's, because you could just go out and buy one for the amount you would have to spend to make your bike do what they do. So there's my from experience.

Sam

Can't we just all agree that my bike is faster because it's yellow?

-Loud Clutches for Whirled Peas-

FCR's rock (I've had them on my last 2 ducs) with minimal wrenching. Chris Kelley is a straight-up guy and good person to do business with. If I had $3k or $4k to drop on my SS I'd get the MBP or BCM heads and big bore kit. So there .

TNDuc I'm with you. I put 39 FCRs on my 900sp this fall and couldn't be happier. Main reason was to get rid of the crappy icing that plagues the Mikunis. Now I can ride early spring through late fall-no icing, burping. spitting. farting or stalling. Just tons 'o torque from 3k right into 8k. No choke-no problem. The idle adjust knob does a much better job, imho. No rich mixture to foul things up. I've been riding my Norton for almost 20 years without a choke.

Next on my list will be a 944 kit and porting...when I have the coin to spare.

b.rock: Bob's got an SS. No small valves there.

Sam: your high comp argument sounds nice, but just doesn't cut it. I've done hi comps. Yeah, added a little to the bike's oomph. But FCRs really rock my world. Instead of making the 900 feel like a 1994 Japanese 600 like the high comps do, FCRs make the 900 feel like a 2001 Japanese 600.

the problem with comp on a long manifold carb engine with the std ignition system is that you have no way of achieving the tapering advance curve you need. we have lots of problems with hi comp bikes pinging on the best premium fuel we have, especially the ram/dp kits that have something like 12.5:1. even 11:1 can be an issue.

injected bikes with the shorter intake and tapering advance curve have no problems. i run my st2 on our std unleaded and it has around 10.8:1.

you don't need much retard really, but getting the 4 to 6 degrees you need under 5,000 rpm without generating idle issues is impossible.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by brad black &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we have lots of problems with hi comp bikes pinging on the best premium fuel we have, especially the ram/dp kits that have something like 12.5:1. even 11:1 can be an issue.

you don't need much retard really, but getting the 4 to 6 degrees you need under 5,000 rpm without generating idle issues is impossible.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Brad- Agreed, but if you "soften" the domes of the hc pistons that really seems to help prevent detonation. Knock the edges off everything and make 'em smooth. My carb'd 750/800SS is nearly 13:1 (Pistals) and runs fine on 92 pump gas. The timing plate is retarded 2 degrees. No, I don't daily commute on it but it seems happy enough in town.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chris_k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">b.rock: Bob's got an SS. No small valves there.

</TD></TR></TABLE>
My mistake then, thought that was on monsters and SSs.

I have 11:1 pistons and FCRs (that I bought from Chris) on my 1997 900 SS. While the pistons helped the power (no problem using 85-87 octane gas either, depending on elevation), they were nothing like the improvement I got from the carbs. And the lack of choke is a non-issue. I live in Wyoming at 6000' and I don't miss it at all. Of all the places I've bought crap for my bike, Chris has been the best
Joe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b.rock &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My mistake then, thought that was on monsters and SSs. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, just my monsters... Heh, I've got two of them `97 lumps. But both of them got their heads "fixed" by Guy.