Hey Tye...while you're STILL ONLINE...explain the whole points lead thing to us...will ya? Mine as well bring it back up...
Shameful part was that this WAS becoming a good thread...until your math skills were exposed and you decided that you knew the answers to your own questions....
Ubermench; thanks for your response. I've walked all the tracks I ride at, including buttonwillow. I've also flagged at all the tracks I ride as well. I feel that track knowledge is crucial and whole-heartedly agree with your WSIR tips, so thanks very much, its too bad we couldn't race together.
Jeff; The 749R uses a different type of shock valving and rocker assembly. The goal was to make the system more linear and ride height/wheel base changes, don't make as much of a difference to SAG. Thanks for your tips and I always appreciate your knowledgeable responses.
And the only person to give a straight-forward explanation and tip goes to Jeremy (crimsoncloak) who explained cutting the fairing to make things fit. I thank you for that tip, it makes sense, just wanted to verify.
Ohh well, its too bad you guys had to ruin this thread. It would have been a great place to discuss some 749R suspension/geometry settings and maybe someone less self centered then you guys would have found the info here helpful. All I tried to do was start some discussion that might have helped me or others.
Finally; Chuck... Why did I ever grant you access to my WSBK site and give you money towards your KTM?
Damon, I thought we had these issues resolved?
Jimmy; You're so jealous, you can't keep yourself together man. KEEP IT TOGETHER!
So the "usual suspects" ruin yet another thread. Now you can go back to sitting in your parents basement, waiting for someone else to post and start running your mouths about the fact you guys know nothing.
BRAVO!
WTF man, have you completely lost your sense for reality? What were the first two pages about?
You ruined your own thread by acting as an ignorant, arrogant ****. That´s it, bottom line. You need some serious attitude adjustment.
Don´t expect anyone to post in your threads in the future. Because we´re all wankers not trying to help you.
I'm was simply trying to point out, more then once you are advertising your self as something your not. Twice I made mention it would be in your best interest to tone the self-righteousness down, but the next day I saw your comments again insinuating sponsorships and level of racing establishment that does not exist, at least not yet.
I was not trying to slam you, but point out many of us have been where your at right now and we know how it works. The first time I road Willow was in 1998 and I have many friends who have raced there for more then 20 years. I'm not the quickest by any means but I know more then I let on.
Like I have said, you are quick, but if you want to be successfully its take a lot more then to be quick. Road Racing is a small world full of inside deals and its very political, much more then I think you realize. So I was actual trying to help by pointing out you should stop trying to portray your self as something your not, at least not yet. You will get far more help witch you WILL need.
I have seen many come and go over the years, some who had lots of talent and where very fast. The ones that take it too seriously seem to fade away after a season or two. Don't take any of this too seriously including your riding. Ride and race to have fun and work on making as many friends as you can out there. Don't worry about having to show how fast you can go every time you race. Ride hard but be safe. That will get you to where you want to go.
There was nothing secret about any tire deal because there was special tire deal. Only a handful of the top, and veteran, riders have any real sponsorship with Dunlop at Willow. Dunlop is the overwhelmingly dominant tire for Willow as you know, they don't have to give anyone "special" deals. Gabe gave you a good price for the take offs and may knock a few bucks off the new sets but nothing more then there standard "good guy" discount.
I don't know why, but I am actually tring to hlep you, Tyler. Maybe because of reasons I listed previously but relay, this isn't meant to be malicious.
No hard feelings.
This will be the my last public post on any of these matters.
Since you bought a used racebike, and I get the impression it's been wobbling since you got it, did you check that everthing was straight? Frame, swingarm, axles, forks, triple clamps, steering stem, wheels.
I once had a bent triple that caused a wobble. The frame was straight and the bike seemed straight as far as checking the wheel alignment but Peter at Computrak Boston found the bent triple. And it was a Magnisium corsa triple, dammit!
Since you bought a used racebike, and I get the impression it's been wobbling since you got it, did you check that everthing was straight? Frame, swingarm, axles, forks, triple clamps, steering stem, wheels.
I once had a bent triple that caused a wobble. The frame was straight and the bike seemed straight as far as checking the wheel alignment but Peter at Computrak Boston found the bent triple. And it was a Magnisium corsa triple, dammit!
If you change the steering stem angle to OEM and lower the front a few mm, the wobble instantly goes away. Thats how I received the bike from the previous owner who had only ridden it for 1600 miles before I got it.
I'm 90% sure, the chassis is ok. I can remove a lot of issues if I put everything, including the geometry back to factory delivery. But then, its harder to steer the bike and lay down the power. Usually bikes with frame damage have strange issues like pulling side to side, or if you make adjustments, it doesn't make a difference. Also, ALL of the other Ducati riders with offset front ends, have suffered the same issues I have now at one point or another.
Rear ride height 240mm
Rear spring pre-load 140mm
Swingarm length 505mm
Front ride height 620mm
I used the basic math formulas for calculating sag ft/rear and was able to get it set perfectly. I'm gonna be working with a suspension expert this coming weekend and get it dialed in.
Even though the thread went to shit, I'm going to report back with an answer.
Ohh and PS, I cut the fairings a bunch to help with the front tire clearance and it seems to be working. Its amazing what a few mm worth of change does.
Actually, I found the problem, it wasn't the ride height adjuster, it was the wheel base. The further back the wheel, the greater the ride height. I totally forgot that I measured the ride height with the wheel further back the first time... woops.
I'll be at the track saturday and let ya'll know what happens. I've got 2 other guys helping me with the bike and 1 professional suspension technician. Man, its like pulling teeth trying to get this bike tuned properly.
All of the tips Ubermench gave, are also very valid in this test.
The rear shock is improperly valved for the spring rate.
Turns out its not just my bike either, its all the OEM stuff. This is kinda what I've told people so many times about OEM equipment vs aftermarket. The OEM valving and shim stack is setup so even if you were to screw in the compression dampening all the way and the preload all the way out, you wouldn't crash.
To fix my problem, we had to undo the rebound almost all the way and turn the compression in almost all the way. Obviously its time to get the shock re-valved and get some new fluid in it as well.
I ended up doing 250mm in rear ride height and 625mm of front height. I ended up with 505mm swing arm length and sticking with the 30mm trail.
Rear spring rate was stock 120nm and forks weren't touched at all, they felt good to him.
Needless to say, It was worth while visiting the suspension guy at the local track, to get some input and get a real expert to verify what I already assumed. The funny thing is, he was willing to undo the preload all the way and thats what really made the bike start to work.
I'll be doing a more complete write up about my experiences towards the end of May on Ducati.ms. If anybody has questions, drop me a PM.
Actually, spring pre-load is measured by measuring the spring itself whilst being compressed.
Tye, I think most people measure spring preload based on compression from fully extended. This is why the number you quoted didn't make sense to me - it should be something like 15 mm preload, not 140.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tye1138
OHH and I wrote down the wrong rear ride height, it was 240mm, not 230mm.
These are both quite small if you're measuring to the center of the axle, assuming the numbers should be comparable to the 996 numbers I'm familiar with (can't be too much different). I'm currently running 255 or so, depends on the tire but not by a huge amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tye1138
Font ride height: Top of the triple tree to the bottom of the fork TUBE.
What I found worked best on my 996 was to drop the front end as far as I possibly could, determined by contact with the fairings after I removed the caps from the forks and dropped the front end all the way down (I couldn't get it down quite as far as the "magic" number I got second-hand from a Corse engineer, which as I recall was 595 mm). Then, you play with damping and oil levels until you are using the full fork travel. After that, you play with the rear ride height.
__________________
08 Red Ducati 1098S
98 Black Ducati 748/800 (street)
99 Black Ducati 996 (race)
Ok how did it go? Share with us your data acquisition from your Falcon dash, laps times, improvements, set backs, where you made improvements (corner entry, mid corner, corner exits) and the changes you made, surely in a methodical manner so you could track the changes to the improvements/set-backs.
without data you're just another person with an Opinion......
Quote:
Originally Posted by tye1138
I'll be at the track saturday and let ya'll know what happens. I've got 2 other guys helping me with the bike and 1 professional suspension technician. Man, its like pulling teeth trying to get this bike tuned properly.
All of the tips Ubermench gave, are also very valid in this test.
Tye, I think most people measure spring preload based on compression from fully extended. This is why the number you quoted didn't make sense to me - it should be something like 15 mm preload, not 140.
According to Dan Kyle (who I consider to be the authority on this) he said to take a set of calipers and measure the entire spring (whilst compressed by the adjuster ring) and that number = preload spring tension. The number you're talking about is probably the difference between a compressed spring and a non-compressed spring. IDK what the spring is uncompressed, haven't measured it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffKoch
These are both quite small if you're measuring to the center of the axle, assuming the numbers should be comparable to the 996 numbers I'm familiar with (can't be too much different). I'm currently running 255 or so, depends on the tire but not by a huge amount.
Well, few things to remember. I'm probably running a slightly longer swing arm length then your 996. I'm also on 16.5" wheels/tires, which means the ride height has to be compensated for those two things. I didn't spend very much time working on ride height, most of my time was working on the front, where I got the forks as low as they can go in the bike w/o scratching the fairings under heavy breaking, even after I sanded them down to allow for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffKoch
What I found worked best on my 996 was to drop the front end as far as I possibly could, determined by contact with the fairings after I removed the caps from the forks and dropped the front end all the way down (I couldn't get it down quite as far as the "magic" number I got second-hand from a Corse engineer, which as I recall was 595 mm). Then, you play with damping and oil levels until you are using the full fork travel. After that, you play with the rear ride height.
I think I measured it wrong... Perhaps you measure from the BOTTOM of the triple to the bottom of the fork tube. That would make more sense because I'm at lowest the front will go without digging into my fairing/front cylinder. I'll go see if I can find some data on that and re-measure later today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubermensch
Ok how did it go? Share with us your data acquisition from your Falcon dash, laps times, improvements, set backs, where you made improvements (corner entry, mid corner, corner exits) and the changes you made, surely in a methodical manner so you could track the changes to the improvements/set-backs.
without data you're just another person with an Opinion......
I don't have any data, the wind was 30 MPH with gusts into the 40mph, which made it almost impossible to get decent laptimes. I also wasn't going for laptimes, I was focusing on certain corners, where I usually slide the bike, to determine wether it continued to slide or not. I also worked on altering tire pressures a bit, trying to find a happy medium, but to get a perfect lap in yesterday was like pulling teeth, nobody could do it and my duc isn't exactly the most aerodynamic (wind hitting you on the side) bike around...
I'll be back there in 2 weeks for WSMC and will take the entire day saturday, to get the data necessary. Though I'm fairly confident things are substantially better. I'm also going to Fontana next weekend, to see if these new suspension changes make a difference there.
Oh that's too bad you wasted a day of practice, not logging lap times is really not acceptable practice for racers. Lap times are the way to measure progress not whether your bike slides or not. If your pushing hard your sliding some anyway and with the data acquisition you would know if you are gaining or losing.
It's always windy at Willow and this could have been a good practice on setting up your bike for the worst Willow wind days, but oh well.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by tye1138
I don't have any data, the wind was 30 MPH with gusts into the 40mph, which made it almost impossible to get decent laptimes. I also wasn't going for laptimes, I was focusing on certain corners, where I usually slide the bike, to determine wether it continued to slide or not. I also worked on altering tire pressures a bit, trying to find a happy medium, but to get a perfect lap in yesterday was like pulling teeth, nobody could do it and my duc isn't exactly the most aerodynamic (wind hitting you on the side) bike around...
I'll be back there in 2 weeks for WSMC and will take the entire day saturday, to get the data necessary. Though I'm fairly confident things are substantially better. I'm also going to Fontana next weekend, to see if these new suspension changes make a difference there.
I'm probably running a slightly longer swing arm length then your 996. I'm also on 16.5" wheels/tires, which means the ride height has to be compensated for those two things.
I have a long swingarm and 16.5" rear, the number should be ballpark right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tye1138
I think I measured it wrong... Perhaps you measure from the BOTTOM of the triple to the bottom of the fork tube. That would make more sense because I'm at lowest the front will go without digging into my fairing/front cylinder. I'll go see if I can find some data on that and re-measure later today.
The number I quoted was from the top painted lip of the steering tube to the center of the front axle with the wheel off and the forks fully extended. That's what the Corse guys said for a 996, but with my 27 mm clamps and 120/80 front tire I can't go this low, so I set it as low as possible without scraping the fairings (much, there's light contact on the chin fairing, as long as it doesn't cause wheel hop then you're o.k.).
__________________
08 Red Ducati 1098S
98 Black Ducati 748/800 (street)
99 Black Ducati 996 (race)
Oh that's too bad you wasted a day of practice, not logging lap times is really not acceptable practice for racers. Lap times are the way to measure progress not whether your bike slides or not. If your pushing hard your sliding some anyway and with the data acquisition you would know if you are gaining or losing.
Ohh, I had both my timers working and got laptimes, but they were horrible because I couldn't go into 8 or 9 quick enough to do anything. I literally had to ride hanging off the bike down the straight, pushing it towards the wind, or the wind would push me right off the track. Then in corner 1, once you get passed the grand stands, the wind would push you towards the apex, I scraped it several times with my pegs, after going wide purposely to avoid it.
I was pushing it in corner 2-6, where the wind wasn't effecting me as much and where most of my sliding comes from. So yes, I was going quick enough to determine if the changes made a difference, but on the over-all laptimes, no... I didn't push it that hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubermensch
It's always windy at Willow and this could have been a good practice on setting up your bike for the worst Willow wind days, but oh well.......
Well, its almost impossible to set up a bike purposely for windy weather, without having a set of fairings you can trash. Drilling holes in certain areas of the fairings would have helped and it would have been kool. But needless to say, on a windy day, nobody is going there normal speed. I probably could have gone faster, but it wasn't a race, or race weekend and if I crashed (like so many others did), it would have been way worse.
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