JUST GOT WORD BACK FORM THE SHOP,
DONT KNOW IF WE ARE MISSUNDERSSTANDSING WITH EACH OTHER.
I HAVE ASKED THE PRICE FOR INLETT CAMS, AND THE
STATES THE THE 506 IS THE LEAST AGRESSIVE INLETTCAM
COMPARED TO THE Eo CAM witch maxiumum tork on toprevs
STATED IN A PREVIOS MAIL THE NUMBER WAS 0E (WHEN i ASKET IF IT WAS 0E OR 00E), I have not asked for exhaust cams.
If the cams were fitted into an original high flowing big port 998rs then yes they would be needing 13.000 to see max power .
Thats my point. You can't just throw cam's in there and expect to see much increase without having to do other work and rev the motor higher. You're right, I didn't mention earlier that porting (intake/exhaust) are actually more vital then what cam's you use anyway. Go into the specifics and you realize, to get the power out of the RS cam's, you really need the RS ported heads and obviously, higher RPM like the RS motor.
Mind you, I did a lot of reading and tested some different heads with alternative porting method's using R cam's and noticed they liked to be revved higher to get the power that was previously easy to obtain at a lower RPM.
748R_bb155: ask to see the marking on the cams and I can tell you if they are good or not, if they say 506 then it's good if not pass.
Tye, I don't know if I misunderstand you but I try again.
The 506 cams are not very long, they lift good and have a good profile, they WILL make good power way below 10k.
When my 996sps was still 996cc it made over 120nm of torque with 506 cams, passing 100hp at 6300 and 118 at 7k. The good side of those cams is that they open fairly quick and have the lift to fit a big valve, big for desmoquattro that is.
Don't mix the 506 up with the exhaust cam that was found in 748RS (OE) which is very long and will take a bit of revs to work, or the design of the 748RS heads for that matter.
Thats my point. You can't just throw cam's in there and expect to see much increase without having to do other work and rev the motor higher. You're right, I didn't mention earlier that porting (intake/exhaust) are actually more vital then what cam's you use anyway. Go into the specifics and you realize, to get the power out of the RS cam's, you really need the RS ported heads and obviously, higher RPM like the RS motor.
Mind you, I did a lot of reading and tested some different heads with alternative porting method's using R cam's and noticed they liked to be revved higher to get the power that was previously easy to obtain at a lower RPM.
You're looking for the OE and 506 combo.
Tye I think you have misunderstood . The 748rs or 748R cams dropped into any standard 4v port will make much improved power and torque over any other cam due to the way it reaches max lift quickly and effectively giving big dollaps of air at max air velocity. Old G cams diminish low and mid range power and need to be revved as they gain airflow over a long period of time duration) hence the low and mid range charging phase is poor.
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For Ducati engine blueprinting/crank balancing/performance cylinderhead prep/ porting / big valve conversions-www.cjsracing.co.uk
For 1st class dyno-tuning ,mapping, custom eproms- and a whole load of other cool stuff www.hypertrick.net
We're discussing, putting RS cam's into an R motor, with no other mods.
The RS cam's were NOT designed to work in the R heads, the porting is totally different and obviously the RS motor is designed to rev higher.
My point is very simple. The gains seen with RS cam's in R heads, won't be very significant compared to the price invested. RS motors go for absolutely nothing, I can score one for $1200 bux any day of the week.
So, instead of buying expensive cam's and having to re-tune the entire bike to maybe get 5hp... why not spend the money on AT LEAST RS heads/cams and of course the 853 kit. There is a set of heads on ebay right now, that were built for me (31/37's) and he's got everything to go along with them.
Its all about doing the "smart" upgrades, not wasting money. The RS motor spits out 118rwhp if tuned properly with race fuel. The R motor with RS cam's will spit out 105-108 most likely. Thats a pretty substantial difference... I've seen 748RS motors with 853 kits in the high 130's!
Thats my only point, its a lot of work and money, for not very much gain.
If I were to buy a set of RS heads and cam's for my 749R, keep the rev limiter at 11800 RPM, would I see much gain? From who I've talked with, the answer is, NO... perhaps 5rwhp.
We're discussing, putting RS cam's into an R motor, with no other mods.
HEADS ARE BEENG REBUILT BY DUCATI KAEMNA, PORTS, GUIDES, SEATS "THE WORKS", THROTTLE BODYS ARE BEEN MACHINED TO REMOVE RESTRICTOR. IF CJS RACING HAD LESS DO DO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SEDT TO HIM.
The RS cam's were NOT designed to work in the R heads, the porting is totally different and obviously the RS motor is designed to rev higher.
My point is very simple. The gains seen with RS cam's in R heads, won't be very significant compared to the price invested. RS motors go for absolutely nothing, I can score one for $1200 bux any day of the week.
THE MAIN REASON ON OPTING FOR THE RS CAMS, ARE THAT THEY ARE NOT THAT EXPENSIVE. And I at least need one inlett(748R type), and as alway, what gives most bang for the buck.
179 EURO PER INLETT (THE MORE AGRESIVE TYPE, 250 EURO PER INLETT 506 GRID (from a dutch racing/ducati shop)
IN NORWAY WHERE I LIVE (TAX IS 25%) ONE INLETT (STANDARD 748R) IS 359 EURO (THATS NORMAL DUCATI RETAIL PRICE)
THE STATE OF MY HORISONTAL CYLINDERHEAD IS
-INNLET CAM DAMAGED
1 INTAKE VALVE SNAPPED
1 EXHAUST BENT
2 VALEGUIDES NEED CHANGING
1 DAMAGED SEAT.
AND A COPLE OF ROCKERS
GOT AN ESTIMATE FOR JUST A REPAIR OF THE DAMAGE USING STOCK DUCATI PARTS FOR APROX : 16000 NORWEGIAN KRONER, THATS ABOUT 1800 EURO.(THE NORWEGIAN DUCATI IMPORTER). SO THE LAST TIME I JUST BOUGHT A 996 ENIGNE (SERVICED AND ADJUSTED BY DUCATI KAEMNA FOR A COUPLE OF 100 EURO MORE).
A NORMAL BIG SERVICE IN NORWAY FOR A 748r IS ABOUT 900 EURO (WHE DONT WORK FOR POCKET CHANGE HERE IN NORWAY A NORMAL SHOP HOURS FOR CAR DEAERS IS ABOUT 80-150 EURO + 25 TAX)
So, instead of buying expensive cam's and having to re-tune the entire bike to maybe get 5hp... why not spend the money on AT LEAST RS heads/cams and of course the 853 kit. There is a set of heads on ebay right now, that were built for me (31/37's) and he's got everything to go along with them.
Already have the 853 kit, and since I need "some repair" to my heads, it actually cheaper to send them to germany to get som real work done on them, than just fixing what is broken here in Norway.
Its all about doing the "smart" upgrades, not wasting money. The RS motor spits out 118rwhp if tuned properly with race fuel. The R motor with RS cam's will spit out 105-108 most likely. Thats a pretty substantial difference... I've seen 748RS motors with 853 kits in the high 130's!
Thats my only point, its a lot of work and money, for not very much gain.
__________________
If its a hobby why count the money !
Now, on a totally different note...
If I were to buy a set of RS heads and cam's for my 749R, keep the rev limiter at 11800 RPM, would I see much gain? From who I've talked with, the answer is, NO... perhaps 5rwhp.
Dont know when my frends 749R(whit the kit) is been rebuilt this winter, I'll post a dyno when its up and running again, but it probably be summer out side and 1 meter of snow less.
According to the kit manual its 140 hp at 13000 rpm, and 85 nm at 10000 rpm, all figures at crank recomended fuel 99 RON. V-power.
95, 98, every gas station 100 available few places in Norway 100 all over germany. __________________________________________________ __ And as a general note 748R (standard) been raced after 4000KM, just bin the engine (Ducati service sheet for "Sport Competizione") And for 748RS after 1000KM the engine kan no longer be used for racing (748RS service manual). The 749R even with the kit installed has "les service if used for racing than a stock 748R".
Throwing a 748rs cam into any 4v head will give more than 5hp !
Except , a 748r where you will prob only get 2hp as the ports are so dam shite.
748R_bb155---Im sorry i could not fit yourheads in Rudigar at Ducati kamna will do a perfect job for you) Im flying out there in may to visit there shop
chris
__________________
life is work
For Ducati engine blueprinting/crank balancing/performance cylinderhead prep/ porting / big valve conversions-www.cjsracing.co.uk
For 1st class dyno-tuning ,mapping, custom eproms- and a whole load of other cool stuff www.hypertrick.net
If I were to buy a set of RS heads and cam's for my 749R, keep the rev limiter at 11800 RPM, would I see much gain? From who I've talked with, the answer is, NO... perhaps 5rwhp.
It depends on whats been done to the ports . You see the 749rs cams have more lift (about 1.5mm from memory) If your port size at the choke section is the same size as the road version mid and upper midrange will be stronger with those cams. Thre is a strong velocity connection with very high lifting cams and stockish sized ports !
If it were me i would fix the ports turn radius only so the higer lift flow can be enhanced/ leave the rest of the port alone and throw the rs cams in. But then again it can just go on and on and it costs money
__________________
life is work
For Ducati engine blueprinting/crank balancing/performance cylinderhead prep/ porting / big valve conversions-www.cjsracing.co.uk
For 1st class dyno-tuning ,mapping, custom eproms- and a whole load of other cool stuff www.hypertrick.net
It depends on whats been done to the ports . You see the 749rs cams have more lift (about 1.5mm from memory) If your port size at the choke section is the same size as the road version mid and upper midrange will be stronger with those cams. Thre is a strong velocity connection with very high lifting cams and stockish sized ports !
If it were me i would fix the ports turn radius only so the higer lift flow can be enhanced/ leave the rest of the port alone and throw the rs cams in. But then again it can just go on and on and it costs money
I had a long talk with Mark about this and the end all, be all answer was; gotta have the RS heads + cam package, to make it worth while. Then, you've gotta deal with the fact the most efficient place to make power is somewhere north of 12k.
The 749R heads are very well ported for a street bike, I'm kinda anxious to find out what the RS kit is like. Obviously the RS kit also comes with higher compression pistons, which in of itself, is a worth-while mod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 748R_bb155
If I were to buy a set of RS heads and cam's for my 749R, keep the rev limiter at 11800 RPM, would I see much gain? From who I've talked with, the answer is, NO... perhaps 5rwhp.
Dont know when my frends 749R(whit the kit) is been rebuilt this winter, I'll post a dyno when its up and running again, but it probably be summer out side and 1 meter of snow less.
According to the kit manual its 140 hp at 13000 rpm, and 85 nm at 10000 rpm, all figures at crank recomended fuel 99 RON. V-power.
95, 98, every gas station 100 available few places in Norway 100 all over germany. __________________________________________________ __ And as a general note 748R (standard) been raced after 4000KM, just bin the engine (Ducati service sheet for "Sport Competizione") And for 748RS after 1000KM the engine kan no longer be used for racing (748RS service manual). The 749R even with the kit installed has "les service if used for racing than a stock 748R". EO
Good info, thanks...
The 748RS needs more work then a 749RS, thats for sure. I know people who've run there 749RS motors for 2700 race KM without any issues.
The 748RS needs work every 700km or 1200km, depending on the item. Thats pretty much a top end job, every weekend!
From what I've been told the 749RS puts out roughly 140rwhp with U4.2 oxygenated race fuel. Of course, thats with an RS ECU and probably factory termi exhaust. I think with my exhaust and Nemesis, I can pull a bit more out of it. I'm anxious to run a dyno on my 749R, gonna hopefully do it this weekend or next weekend...
848 kitted 749R, Leo Vince full Ti exhaust (from formula extreme bike), stock heads, stock valves, Ducati Performance shower holders and stacks. Cams from a Factory extreme bike as well. And of course a Nemesis.
Fairly ho-hum red line for best longevity. Tuned by DemonTech.
A guy did a 749R/848 combo close to me and busted the cases, known combo.
My personal opinion is don't rev a duc but get good power from your rebuild, not easy but its doable. Put the money into rebuilding the heads,keep the revs as low as you can making power.
Don't mean to scare anyone off, an 11 is ok like the graph presented, the engine I'm referring to made 12,x.
Don't rev it, and in that lays much more thought than buying Corse parts, because they don't care much about longetivity.
A guy did a 749R/848 combo close to me and busted the cases, known combo.
My personal opinion is don't rev a duc but get good power from your rebuild, not easy but its doable. Put the money into rebuilding the heads,keep the revs as low as you can making power.
Don't mean to scare anyone off, an 11 is ok like the graph presented, the engine I'm referring to made 12,x.
Don't rev it, and in that lays much more thought than buying Corse parts, because they don't care much about longetivity.
+2 ON THAT.
Especially the older corse heads where the ports were like drain pipes. We saw 2 996rs on our dyno wich were barely making 150hp. All those expensive ,explosive bits and in reality you can make a 996 with small much smaller ports + cams from a 748r make nearly same power with better mid range....WTF...
__________________
life is work
For Ducati engine blueprinting/crank balancing/performance cylinderhead prep/ porting / big valve conversions-www.cjsracing.co.uk
For 1st class dyno-tuning ,mapping, custom eproms- and a whole load of other cool stuff www.hypertrick.net
+2 ON THAT.
Especially the older corse heads where the ports were like drain pipes. We saw 2 996rs on our dyno wich were barely making 150hp. All those expensive ,explosive bits and in reality you can make a 996 with small much smaller ports + cams from a 748r make nearly same power with better mid range....WTF...
Porting is so vital, I'm pretty sure the 749RS heads are ported well, not overly large. Its ok, I don't have any money!
Porting is so vital, I'm pretty sure the 749RS heads are ported well, not overly large. Its ok, I don't have any money!
No money...lol... Neither have I
In england to make money you either
1. need to have money in the first place
2. Do a shite quick engine job and charge mega money for it (i know someone who does this , he is loaded and gets away with it WTF)
Or 3 be a crook and sell some drugs (Seedy/low stlye but works for some !!!
This has been a good thread. !
__________________
life is work
For Ducati engine blueprinting/crank balancing/performance cylinderhead prep/ porting / big valve conversions-www.cjsracing.co.uk
For 1st class dyno-tuning ,mapping, custom eproms- and a whole load of other cool stuff www.hypertrick.net
1. need to have money in the first place
2. Do a shite quick engine job and charge mega money for it (i know someone who does this , he is loaded and gets away with it WTF)
Or 3 be a crook and sell some drugs (Seedy/low stlye but works for some !!!
Yea, I heard that! Time to move to the states! LOL
Tye, why do you even bother replying in these threads? Everyone knows your position on playing/mod'ding the older motors, and we all almost always disagree with your view. So why do you waste everyone's time spouting off the same thing everytime? You do it on Ducati.ms and you do it on here, and you get the same responses everytime. People proving that you can make good HP without gobs of money. Not everyone wants the latest motor. Get over it already.
Just got an update from Kaemna :
OE ,s are the latest 748 RS cams , 506 are most used , after that OEs where installed . the cams are inlets of course .VA and OA code.
specs you get from me also of course to make propper timing .
OEs have reduced forces to 506 ,a little bit smoother over all ,and runs brilliant with 854 kit .
on 748 original OF ,if service will not be done perfect ,the bike will eat all rockers for shure !!
service is the main point of all "fast" reving engines !!!!!
and 506 had a little bit more forces than OF , and OEs have forces a little bit more then standart ! but less to 506 type !!
This is a very good compromise ! the OEs are running really good with veryy high midrange !! and topend !!
regards rüdiger
Since both of my inlett cams were damaged, gues which cams are going into my engine
Rudigar at Ducati kamna will do a perfect job for you) Im flying out there in may to visit there shop 
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