848 vs 749

[webman]

Has anyone rode both of these at speed to have an opinion in the handling and power differances?

[hank]

There was a great comparo between the 848 & 749R a month or 2 ago in RRW... definitely worth reading.

[BC999S]

Originally Posted by hank

There was a great comparo between the 848 & 749R a month or 2 ago in RRW... definitely worth reading.

Most liked the 848. 1 liked the 749. And yes, its worth the read.

[tye1138]

I own both an 848 and a 748R race bike. I've ridden them on the track, back to back. I've also ridden 749R's on the street, I really wanted one at one point my riding career, but decided against it.

To start with, my 748R is a custom-built race bike. Its light, it's got power, the shopping list is around 13,000 worth of parts... so yea, without getting into it, I'd say it's a decent package.

If you really ride the two bikes (848/749R) back to back, you'll see how refined of a track bike the 749R really is. From better gear ratio's to much more usable power-band. The 848's motor, has the power band of a 750 inline 4. Its got some bottom end, but mostly everything comes on at 7k and unlike the inline 4, you've gotta shut down the 848 at 11k. The 749R isn't like that, neither is my 748R. The power is very smooth all the way through the range, much more like a dimming light switch, rather then an on/off switch. The smooth power, allows for better and more consistent drive out of corners. Though I will also admit, the 848's lump feels like it has much more top end, then the 749R or 748R.

The chassis between the two bikes, is very different, probably the biggest difference. I feel the 848 fits me much better then the 749, besides the bogus stock rear-sets, everything feels like a race bike. Leaning off the bike is a piece of cake, grabbing knee on the street is easy, without even trying, let alone the track. The chassis so stable, out of the box, the bike is pretty unstoppable in that department. Though, having a steering dampener, is a must... Ducati tried to make the bike work well without one, but it still needs one.

Suspension is the 2nd most important thing on a bike, besides the tires. The new Showa components are very competent. Doing decent laptimes on the 848, didn't require as much effort as the 748. I was immediately as fast, if not faster on the 848 from the get go, then I had been previously on my 748. With that being said, taking it up a notch from there, 848's suspension was lacking. After setting up the 848's suspension as close as we could for my slender 150lb's, the 848 started getting out of shape, when I started really beating on it. My 748R always stay's in shape, no matter what you do to it, the bike just takes it like a champ. I never took a 749R through a 100+ MPH corner, so IDK how it reacts, neither do the guys at RRW, streets of willow is a SLOW track compared to where I did my tests. Another thing which is important to note is the wheel's. I've been using magnesium wheels on my 748R for quite sometime, they are the heaviest cast magnesium wheel made, but never the less, much lighter then any aluminum wheel. My 748R loves high-speed corners, dump it in and grab some throttle, it always feels great. The 848 just didn't wanna do high-speed corners, it needed a lot more encouragement coming into turn one at California Speedway. It actually freaked me out because I was so use to steering the 748R through there, when the 848 didn't respond in the same manor, I was just shocked. Weather its the wheels or the suspension, its hard to know.

To sum it up, I think as a base, the 848 is stellar. Compared to a bare-bones 749D, its 45lb's lighter! Compared to a 749R its more like 30lb's lighter, but thats still a HUGE difference.

The 749R was roughly $21,999.
The 848 is roughly $13,499

Thats a difference of $8500 bux. The question here is; can you take that difference and spend it in the right places, to make the 848 even better?

Sure!

- Ohlins cartridge assembly; $1699
- Ohlins TTX shock; $1300
- Ohlins dampener kit; $499
- STM Slipper clutch $980
- Leo Vince exhaust $1499
- Nemesis ECU with wide-band o2 sensors; $1299 + $800
- Adjustable ride height adjuster $380
Comes out to roughly $8500 bux. Then, sell the components you took off and buy a set of Marchisini Magnesium wheels and aluminum subframe...

With those upgrades, some cam timing and dyno love, you should be doing pretty well motor wise and suspension wise.

To sum-up, 848's a great starter package. Ducati hasn't ever built such a bike, so cheap. I personally feel its a better package then the 749R, but the 749R does have some better attributes. You can make a 848 perform MUCH better then a 749R, using the upgrades I mentioned above. Its all a matter of money and if you could afford a 749R, why not spend the same money to make an 848 better!

[kaos]

seems silly to quote the msrp of a 749r,theres been a few low mile examples sell for what a 848 goes for recently.for even money it would be the ''r'' sitting in my garage, for the street or for track days.the investment potential just ices the cake.

[departmentofsuspension]

Originally Posted by tye1138

The 749R was roughly $21,999.
The 848 is roughly $13,499

Thats a difference of $8500 bux. The question here is; can you take that difference and spend it in the right places, to make the 848 even better?

Sure!

- Ohlins cartridge assembly; $1699
- Ohlins TTX shock; $1300
- Ohlins dampener kit; $499
- STM Slipper clutch $980
- Leo Vince exhaust $1499
- Nemesis ECU with wide-band o2 sensors; $1299 + $800
- Adjustable ride height adjuster $380
Comes out to roughly $8500 bux. Then, sell the components you took off and buy a set of Marchisini Magnesium wheels and aluminum subframe...

!

Don't forget the $1000 you are going to need for triple clamps. The 848 has no trail/no front end feel and won't finish corners on the gas.

A stock 749R will blow the doors off of a stock 848 on the track

[webman]

Originally Posted by kaos

seems silly to quote the msrp of a 749r,theres been a few low mile examples sell for what a 848 goes for recently.for even money it would be the ''r'' sitting in my garage, for the street or for track days.the investment potential just ices the cake.

Exacatly, thats why I asked the question. Can get 749R cheaper now,but my research indicates a much more maintance intensive up keep along with much lower HP potental. Replacing Ti valves,conrods etc, on this revver could add up quick freshing up a 2-3 year old "rare" motor .Thanks for the indeph response. The best thing the 748/996 chassis does is the high speed sweeper thing( certaintly doesn't steer quickly). Are you saying that the 848 chassis is now almost oposite in that its quick steering,but not as stable/planted in the high speed sweeper on the knee stuff? This is for a track bike only consideration on my part.

[jarelj]

Originally Posted by hank

There was a great comparo between the 848 & 749R a month or 2 ago in RRW... definitely worth reading.

Seemed to me that they may not have known that the 749R has adjustable front end geometry. All of their comments were remeniscent of what I remember from riding my 749R in stock configuration before changing to the steeper rake and decreased offset position. Still it was cool to see them even doing that type of Ducati-focused article.

[Ducati23]

Originally Posted by departmentofsuspension

A stock 749R will blow the doors off of a stock 848 on the track

You're not kidding. The 749R with some work done rocks!

[cosmicbiker]

Originally Posted by Ducati23

You're not kidding. The 749R with some work done rocks!

i agree with you

[sideways]

Originally Posted by departmentofsuspension

A stock 749R will blow the doors off of a stock 848 on the track

Good luck, I took the doors off my 848 track bike.

[Realmanken]

I think there is something about the chasis geometry on the 916/996/748
that makes it rail better in corners and respond better to steering input then the 999/749 and perhaps even the 1098/848 for that matter.
Thats one thing I beleive Tamburini nailed down, and perhaps thats why the MV has gone for such a long time with no changes to it except for the motor. Too bad MV never were able to muster up a Championship. They have a good chasis and decent motor. I think the only things holding them back were a heavy bike, lack of rider talent, and racing money. The racing money probably went to buy Yachts for the CEO's. LOL! But the 916/996/998 won plenty of titles. The proof is in the pudding as Grandma always said.

[sideways]

I like the comparison of a, say GXR750, to an 848. In my opinion these two bikes are stellar in the handling department, especially compared to their bigger brothers the GSXR1000 and the 1098. This is not a new phenomenon as the 748 could easily carve up a 916 with all other things being equal.

As far as the 749R vs 848, what was the conclusion of the Road Racing World article? I don’t have this issue handy.

I have my own idea but I don't want to mimic the whole article if I can just state, "yeah, what they said".

[departmentofsuspension]

Originally Posted by Realmanken

I think there is something about the chasis geometry on the 916/996/748
that makes it rail better in corners and respond better to steering input then the 999/749 and perhaps even the 1098/848 for that matter.

The frame geometry is exactly the same on the 748-998 and the 749-999. The only difference between the two families is:

that you can run the swingarm longer on the 749/999

The airbox on the 748-998 worked as a stressed member and therefore they have different flex characteristics than the 749/999. But you will see the extra strut added for some of the riders on the RS frames. Some used it, some didn’t.

The seating position on the 748-998 is a lot higher than the 749/999 which makes the bike feel a lot different and makes the bike behave differently too because of the weight distribution. It helped on the 748-998 to be high because you need to do everything you can to get more weight on the front tire of any Ducati because of the rear cylinder. I would guess you feel like the 748-998 can “rail” better because of this.

The 848/1098 is quite a bit different than it’s ancestors though. There is a completely different solution to getting the chassis to work correctly. And from what I have seen no one quite has it nailed yet. If you look closely the WSB guys are all running different setups, and not slightly different. This was not the case with the older bikes. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ducati actually make some production changes to the 848/1098 in the next few years. Wait, we are talking about Ducati here. I hope they make some changes over the next couple of years.

[departmentofsuspension]

Originally Posted by sideways

As far as the 749R vs 848, what was the conclusion of the Road Racing World article?

I wouldn’t treat the conclusions of RRW as Gospel. Their history with testing and reporting on Ducati’s is very inconsistent. My guess is that they don’t have much experience with chassis settings on the Ducati’s so their riding impressions come down to how the actual bike they are riding is set up or how the setup is working with whatever tires they are using.

I have not read the article either

I would rather have Matt’s impressions of the two bikes than RRW.

[Ducati23]

I have a 749R(848) and a new 848. The 749R requires some work to be excellent but once setup it works awesome. The jury is still out with the 848. Ironically the problem most people have with the 848/1098 is finishing the corner. This is not that easy to solve. Triples and ride height allow the turn in and mid corner setup to be worked out. Front end feel improves a bunch with 30mm of offset

I suspect that the combined differences of power delivery, more flexible engine cases, very progressive suspension linkage rate, swingarm angle & length, stiffer chassis & swingarm individually or in combination may have had an adverse effect on handling when compared to the 749R.

Dan Kyle makes a different ratio linkage but it doesn't seem to be the whole answer - and his solution is very expensive...when you add the cost of the link, a "special" reworked Dan Kyle only short ttx shock and an adjustable length push rod. A lot of money to fix that problem without even addresing the front end.

Matt's opinion is worth more to me than RRW as well, and Matt the Ohlins forks arrived, thanks again.

I hope that with some changes in setup - ride height, spring rate, wheel base, swingarm angle and maybe make a flatter rate link the thing can be made to complete the whole turn very well. I'll try some combinations of things a little differently than what has been tried to date. I might even try a different size rear wheel or three - 16.5/5.75 16.5/6 17/6 and see if that has a positive result. Once a solution is found the bike should be a lot of fun.

[departmentofsuspension]

Originally Posted by Ducati23

The jury is still out with the 848. Ironically the problem most people have with the 848/1098 is finishing the corner. This is not that easy to solve. Triples and ride height allow the turn in and mid corner setup to be worked out. Front end feel improves a bunch with 30mm of offset

It took me a while but I finally cracked the code and my 1098 will finish a corner at WOT and the only reason you need to touch the bars is to keep from falling off the bike. You can 100% steer it with the throttle. And while working on the bike I got the front end addressed too. Any rider that is familiar with a well set up version of the 748-998 (27mm triples and a swingarm) or a well set up 749/999 (27mm triples) could jump on and ride it like it was their own.

The solution is a combination of a few parts, not just triple clamps (which are nowhere near 30mm) and also includes a ride height tool. But the entire kit will be somewhere between $1000-$1100. I will be putting a group buy together in the next two weeks. I just need to iron out the cost of some items from a few suppliers.

So please spread the word, I have a mortgage to pay.

[ductedfan]

Interesting stuff here, I'm currently contemplating making a change to either a 1098 or 848 but I'm still riding the fence. This is what I'm on now:

'02 998 Trackday only
27mm clamps, BST wheels, brakes, ohlins, etc, etc. motor is bone stock, besides the usual exhaust, air filters and gearing.

I'm 160lbs in full gear and I'm tired of fighting all the weight of the 998, but if I put the thing up for sale to go get a 1098/848 I'm way behind in the $$ curve. Especially if you still need to throw a few thousand $$ at it to get it to finish the corner. And you know I'm going to throw the usual at it, exhaust, suspension, track skins, etc.

According to sport rider mag the '02 998 weighs 479# wet and only made 118hp. I'm dyno'd at 124hp & 78 ft/lbs of torque, but like I said pushing a lot of weight.

Does anyone have any real world back to back personal riding comparisons bwtn the 998 and the 1098/848. And is my math correct in that I'd be $$ behind by switching, and all for what 1/2 a second faster a lap on the 848?