Hey guys I'm trying to understand the difference between a new ECU and PCIII. I ride a monster 620ie and will be getting new pipes. The choices are apparently a PCIII to produce custom maps or a new ECU for the bike with the pipes. What are the pro's and con's of each? Any experience good or bad with either choice?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Speeddog830 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The PCIII can be adjusted endlessly, but will only effect the fueling.
A new ECU may alter other things like ignition advance curve, rev limit, etc.
But it's not adjustable, so you take what you get.
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When you talk about a ECU I guess that you talk about the FIM ECU. It is very adjustable. You just need some one with the proper software. A propery set up ECU will always be better than an ECU that does something wrong that you try to compensate with a PC but if you talk bang for bucks the PC is good.
Just make sure you get a good one. My PC3 was eating the ECU on my bike and then after that it was selfdestructive so I needed to replace both a new ECU and a pc for my bike due to a bad PC3.
I was referring to the DP ECU's, some of which have higher rev limits, as well as different fueling maps and likely different ignition advance maps. AFAIK, the DP units are not adjustable, other than the 'trimmer'. Just like the stock Duc units.
The FIM ECU is a very nice piece. Shops that have both the software to tune it and the skill to use that software aren't located anywhere close to me, so it's not a good option for me.
I absolutely agree that a properly set up ECU will be better than an improperly set ECU with a PCIII.
another choise is to have the settings on your stock ECU tweeked by your local dealer. especially if you're just installing slip-ons, the amount of adjustability should be plenty to make the bike run well. is this as effective or fine-tuned as the other options? no, but it shouldn't cost you mroe than one hour's labor which sure makes it an economic choise!
If you dont have any pipes yet a Ducati Performance system should be good for you. They normaly include the ECU and the ECU is set up for the pipes, normaly they also comes with open airbox lid also. Like Speeddog830 said the DP ECU is not possible to remap but it should be good from the box.
As long as all you plan to do is install exhaust, you bike will run fine with the DP ECU. A little mathesis work maybe necessary as Strati mentioned. If you decide to upgrade the cams,which I don't know they make for the 620, you'll be kissing the DP ECU bye-bye as I did with my s4. The DP ECU cannot handle any radical changes in fueling like those created when hotter cams are added. Dynojet says that even the stock bike is benefited by a PCIII.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DocHolliday »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you decide to upgrade the cams,which I don't know they make for the 620, you'll be kissing the DP ECU bye-bye as I did with my s4.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have a set of VeeTwo cams that I got from BCM. They are supposed to the same or similar grind to DP SPS cams. Cam timing I couldn't say for sure but I know the exhaust cams are way out 20 degrees or something like that. I have a PC III w/ custom map. The problem I was having was the cam lobes are so radical that the bike dosen't really want to idle. I need to be reving constantly until the bike is warmed up. Otherwise, the bike would run too rich at low rpms and too lean at high rpms The DP ECU might have worked if I could have run the bike at 6-7000 rpm all the time. I'd be dead or in jail. The PCIII is much more adaptable. What I would like to see is a ECU like the Moto GP bikes have where they can switch between 2 or more maps with a push of a button. You could have a lean map for city/stop and go traffic and a rich map for blazing around the countryside.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DocHolliday »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I would like to see is a ECU like the Moto GP bikes have where they can switch between 2 or more maps with a push of a button. You could have a lean map for city/stop and go traffic and a rich map for blazing around the countryside. </TD></TR></TABLE>
a good map has all that - you don't want the fuelling rich here or lean there, you just need it to be right all over. if you have to have a switch to change between maps then the maps are not right.
if they're 996sps cams they're not very radical at all. certainly bigger than std, but still pretty mild, especially in ducati terms.
Brad hit it right on the head Doc. There aren't two diferent maps for two different riding styles. Rather, it's just perfecting the air/fuel mixture/timing across the rpm band. I come from the Harley world, and a lot of the old timers are still grumbling about transitioning from carbs to FI with these persnickety computers and mapping, etc. The truth is that you can come pretty close to perfection with this system. If the ECU on the Duc is like those found on piglike Harleys, then you'll find that ECU's are not very modifiable. Thus the factory nails you by making you buy upgraded units that are generic to specific stage modifications. The addition of the Power Commander allows for additional modification and fine tuning. However, the question I always ponder is, "Is it worth 3 bills for that extra 4 hp?" Let's face it, there aren't many of us who can wring our bikes out hard enough on the streets that the addition of 2-4 hp is worth the purchase (I expect a lot of testosterone screams for saying this). More practice in keeping your bike in the power band, maxing out your braking and setting up properly for a curve to conserve momentum will gain you more speed than a Power Commander ever will. That's my two cents.
That pretty much sums it up Brian thanks. My ultimate question was whether or not I could re-map with a PCIII better with the stock ECU or just get an aftermarket ECU pre-mapped with my seutp. Sounds like the crowd votes for pre-mapped static ECU.
it's not the extra power that makes something like a pc, dp ecu or the ultimap ecu worth the money. it's the niceness of the way it runs when it's mapped right. extra power will come at wot if there's more power to be had, but that's only 16 map points out of 256. the other 240 are just as important to how it rides.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gnostic203 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That pretty much sums it up Brian thanks. My ultimate question was whether or not I could re-map with a PCIII better with the stock ECU or just get an aftermarket ECU pre-mapped with my seutp. Sounds like the crowd votes for pre-mapped static ECU.
Thanks all...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't see where the crowd said that at all. ANY pre-mapped ECU, PC3 map, etc will never run YOUR bike as well as the one that it was mapped for. My opinion of best to worst.
FIM ECU custom mapped. (Good luck finding a tuner if you are on the west coast)
PC3 custom mapped.
PC3 w/map for similar bike.
Ducati Performance ECU.
I can understand why everyone assumes that a DP ECU has the right map for any configuration, but my experience is, that is not necessarily so.
Even if the mapping was done correctly, fuel pressure, idle mixture setting (actually an offset over the entire map) and injector flow variations mean that every bike will benefit from a custom map.
The best choice, for practical reasons, is any ECU and a PCIII USB. The USB enables separate cylinder mapping, which is necessary.
It baffles me why there aren't a bunch of shops in Calif. that can map a 1.6M using the Ultimap software, but that's another rant.
And, the poor idle isn't because of cams, it's because the mapping isn't complete. Performance folks are too willing to suffer poor idle and drivability and blame it on the parts, when it's the lack of, or deficiencies in, tuning.
Matt Smith's 145HP 996SPS idles just fine.
Greg Hegwood's 140HP 124CI Harley idles just fine too.
165HP Suzuki GSXR1000s idle just fine too.
Doug
i think all these questions are a result of techs with poor skills with a lack of knowledge about the ducati product. i removed a pcIII from my bike because i could not find a competent shop to install a performence map for my setup.
i still would like to see you or some other sucessfull tuner retire to florida so i can have someone to work on my bike. oh and bring the dyno with you please.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by moperfserv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And, the poor idle isn't because of cams, it's because the mapping isn't complete. Performance folks are too willing to suffer poor idle and drivability and blame it on the parts, when it's the lack of, or deficiencies in, tuning.
Matt Smith's 145HP 996SPS idles just fine.
Greg Hegwood's 140HP 124CI Harley idles just fine too.
165HP Suzuki GSXR1000s idle just fine too.
Doug
</TD></TR></TABLE> , that is exactly how I understand it, I was starting to doubt it it for a while reading on down the previous posts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by brad black »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it's not the extra power that makes something like a pc, dp ecu or the ultimap ecu worth the money. it's the niceness of the way it runs when it's mapped right. extra power will come at wot if there's more power to be had, but that's only 16 map points out of 256. the other 240 are just as important to how it rides.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree with this too, my S4 has open air box, K&N filter, shortened Termis and a std ECU, with have taken my ECU to + 21 from - 16 on the Mathesis and reset the air bleeds to get teh CO's correct and accordingly the idle, it makes 109 RWHP which is 5 odd HP down on the likes of oneduces with SPS goodies etc but it runs like a well oiled clock, smooth as a babbies bum right thru to rev limiter.
It is really nice to have a bike that runs real sweet all the way thru, makes a huge difference to your riding controllabilty and smoothness, that is my take on it anyway.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oneducs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i still would like to see you or some other sucessfull tuner retire to florida so i can have someone to work on my bike. oh and bring the dyno with you please. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by moperfserv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I was successful, I'd be retired in Florida! </TD></TR></TABLE>
well that is only more of a reason to make the move.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gnostic203 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That pretty much sums it up Brian thanks. My ultimate question was whether or not I could re-map with a PCIII better with the stock ECU or just get an aftermarket ECU pre-mapped with my seutp. Sounds like the crowd votes for pre-mapped static ECU.
Thanks all...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gnostic, you got it backwards. Either that or my mind is brainfarting at record rates. I said that ECUs are generic and non tailored. Sort of a stab by the factory to create a Stage 1 ECU, or a Stage 2 ECU, without necessarily knowing EXACTLY how your bike is configured. Sometimes they get close, sometimes not, it's a crapshoot. To clarify. If you want a perfectly mapped system, buy a PC, find a Dyno, and spend the time to get the settings perfect. If your an advanced or expert rider, you will know and enjoy the difference. I was trying to point out that if you're a novice, these changes probably won't be dramatic enough to jingle your synapses. Hope that lays things to rest.
New ecu or PCIII?
Thanks all...
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